DLC Idea: The Sea Peoples

DLC Idea: The Sea Peoples

Conceived post-3K as Italy could easily afford some more splits, Originally, I had Danes in for theme with Genoa and Venice, then ChatGPT nominated Sardinians and I investigated, finding enough there. Danes are now saved for later to limit most DLC ideas to no more than 4 civs (counting the minor Italian revision in this case). The Sea Peoples were a Mediterranean phenomenon during the Bronze Age Collapse anyways, so the name still fits.

Genoa (Genoese)

Everyone remembers the “GENOESE WARSHIPS SIGHTED!” from Saladin 6, though this also means Italians need a new coat of arms and unique unit. The Republic of Genoa began far later than Venice, so Venice should be the pre-gunpowder representative, while Genoa has gunpowder.

Civ Bonus: Lumber camps cost -75% wood (those boards and beams for ships aren’t going to cut themselves! And the Japanese get 50% off all the drop sites, so this is very reasonable)
Civ Bonus: Transport and Trade Cog +10% speed, Trade Cog +20% gold yield.
Civ Bonus: +15% construction and building work speed within 6 tiles of a dock, due to colonies in Adriatic, Crimea, Seville, and Bruges (Belgium).
Civ Bonus: Defensive buildings have +1 range against ships (if engine permits, could just duplicate the weapon and make one anti-ship and the other anti-land).
Civ Bonus: Once a castle is built, all existing Crossbowmen can be upgraded to Genoese Crossbowmen, who can then be produced at the Archery Range (Of course, Castles do not need to research anything to make Genoese Crossbowmen). The tech functions like Persian Savar by branching away from a common unit, and price I suggest 300F/200W/300G base, scaling +10W per Crossbowman (though you lose gold value researching this). If it turns out you researched Elite before coming back to archery range for this, the upgrade will turn remaining Crossbowmen into Genoese Crossbowmen who instantly upgrade to Elite.

Castle Age Unique Tech: Northwest Terminus of the Silk Road, improves Market trade prices by 10 points either way (buy 10 lower, sell 10 higher, if I recall the default initial 100 buy 70 sell correctly), however, limit is that the buy/sell prices are exactly equal, to prevent cheesing.
Imperial Age Unique Tech: Mount of Piety of Genoa, increases gold income by 10% from all sources.

Barracks: Condottiero, Pikemen, no Gambesons (they’d drown you if you fell in the sea)

Regional Tech: “Condotta Reform”, 500F/300G base cost, plus 12 gold per Longsword being upgraded (see Spies for hot to handle scaling cost). The price difference between Swordsmen and Condottieri is 15 gold each, so this baits players with a trade-off of massing Longswords first. AOE2 Engine can handle this price calculation because it can handle Spies just fine. Also, any Longswords in queue will also charge you for the upgrade cost if engine permits. If this isn’t possible, just forbid research while there are Longswords still being built, and forbid queuing more Longswords while researching this to avoid using a cancel exploit to get gold out of nowhere. This generates a trade-off of whether to crank out many Longswords in castle age and upgrade them all for an early-Imperial power spike, or to save the food and gold for other things. The AI should also have its builds that either use or go around this trade-off.

The point of this tech is that it makes a lot of sense to upgrade a sword-and-shield guy (Longswords) to a better-equipped sword-and-shield guy (Condottieri).

Archery Range: Elite Genoese Crossbowmen, Elite Skirmishers, Hand Cannoneer, Thumb Ring

Stable: Hussar, Cavalier, Bloodlines + Husbandry

Siege: Capped Ram, Onager, Scorpion, Bombard Cannon

Dock: Full tech tree, including Elite Cannon Galleons.

University: Siege Engineers up for debate/balance testing.

Monastery: No Heresy, no Sanctity, no Theocracy.

Economy: Full

Defences: Full, noted for superior shore defences, hence the civ bonus above.

Unique Unit: Genoese Crossbowmen taken back from Italians, along with the Genoese red cross on white flag.

Team Bonus: Transport, Fishing Ship and Fishermen +5 capacity

As for land maps, neither Genoa nor Venice are famous land powers, so I can only do so much.

Venice (Venetian)

Another maritime merchant republic established in 697, centuries earlier than Genoa, so this faction should represent historical Venice and be the representative of pre-gunpowder merchant republics, timeframe generally before the Second Venetian Arsenal (so pre-1370 at latest). They also had more holdings on land than Genoa, and relied heavily on mercenaries such as Condottiero (historically heavy cavalry, in-game heavy infantry) and Stratioti (cavalry archers and light cavalry). The tech upgrading Longswords to Condottiero also exists for Venetians.

DEFINING Civ bonus: Buildings ignore land-shallows margins and can be built on shallows, only check for full-water tiles, cliffs, and other obstacles being in the way. Farms, however, cannot be built off land (or amphibious mangrove forest in that map type). Whether this affects building durability (like Cracked terrain does) depends on balancing needs, but initially no effect.

Civ bonus: +10% fishing work rate by all units.
Civ Bonus: +5HP for Scout cav line per age, starting Feudal, as more Stratioti (historically light cav and cav archers) join the ranks.

Castle Age Unique Tech: Adriatic Dominance and Alpine Passes—Trade units still produce the same gold, but now also produce 10% of that yield in each of food and stone per run (in theory exactly 20% more total resources gained). Market Buy/Sell prices 5 points better, at most equal to each other (still gives good value in late game 1v1).
Imperial Age Unique Tech: Venetian Arsenal—Ships cost 10% less wood (sum 30% less wood with Shipwright), archery range units -5W/-5G cost. THIS is the archetypical Shipwright writ large. I don’t deem this absurd on water, because Vikings get 20% less wood AND gold cost on ships in Imperial Age (though lack the fire ship line), and we know gold is scarcer. Historically, the staff of the Arsenal also developed new firearms at an early date, but we are using the early version here, before the 1370s, so presumably they could build crossbows and javelineer kit too (utility on land maps).

Barracks: Condottiero, Pikemen, three basic techs (Gambesons available for landed warfare, as Venice had a much larger “Domini di Terraferma”)

Regional Tech: “Condotta Reform”, the same as Genoese.

Archery Range: Arbalester, Elite Skirmishers, Thumb Ring, Parthian Tactics (applies only to UU). Bonus in this field exists in Imperial UT.

Stable: Hussar, Cavalier, Bloodlines + Husbandry.

Siege: Capped Ram, Onager (lacking Chemistry is a bonus for this line), Heavy Scorpion

Dock: Full tech tree with Dromons (no Cannon Galleon line). Civ bonuses on water are basically the Imperial UT.

University: No Chemistry and of course no Bombard Towers (set earlier in time)

Monastery: No Sanctity, no Theocracy.

Economy: Not sure, if balance demands, may lack Crop Rotation (earlier in time and usually more difficult terrain to work with, so lower farm yields) for endgame eco balance, or lose a Shaft Mining tech (flooded ground).

Defences: Historically had good shore defences, but I decided to leave that job to the top-tier navy.

Unique Unit: Stratioti, mercenary cavalry archers from the Balkans. Cavalry archer base 40W/60G for 50 HP (70 with Bloodlines), 6 attack (+2 vs spearman) on 2 reload, 4 range, 0/0 armor, 1.4 speed. On this basis, Stratioti are down to +1 anti-spear bonus, but gain +1 cavalry armor, cavalry archer armor and archer armor, along with shorter attack delay and higher base accuracy (the cav archer 50% base accuracy is absurdly bad). Due to experience, they are tougher to counter units (2 less from skirmishers) than, say, ordinary steppes levies raised by nomads, but not quite as proficient at sniping spearmen in the face. They don’t ask for as much gold up front as they can loot their foes, and brought their own equipment, but they do demand to be supplied and fed… so 55F/55G probably, to make them a relatively niche unit (food in Castle Age is more valuable than Wood, but this does free up Wood for the navy). Upgrade cost probably 900W/500G (heavy can archer is 900F/500G) while gaining 10 base HP, 1 base attack, and even shorter attack delay. The result has better anti-counter armor, but 1 base melee armor less than heavy cav archer, so consider adding 1 pierce armor too depending on testing.

Italians Changes (to split off Genoese and Venetians, consider renaming as “Papal States”)

New flag: We know civ icons in AOE2 Definitive Edition can use shield icons… like the fancy Papal Shield! (Papal States flag before 1808 is a dull design)

New Unique Unit to replace the lost Genoese Crossbowmen: “Vatican Enforcer” (Imperial age upgrade changes to “Papal Inquisitor”). Costs about 100 gold (adjustable to not obsolete regular monks). Benefits are longer (+2?) manual conversion range than regular monks, and they are immune to conversion. They only heal other units at half rate, but can have a faster faith (for conversions) recharge if needed. In combat these units aren’t anything close to upgraded warrior priest tier durable, probably Longsword durability and similar sword attack, but have an attack bonus against monks (which is partly resisted by warrior priests). Elite version gets more HP (presumably 2HS or Champion level HP, to take a Siege Onager to the face), armor and +2 range again.

New Civ Bonus: Monasteries work 50% faster (so everything takes two-thirds as long), including relic gold generation, because of Vatican tithes.

Modified Team Bonus: Condottiero available for all allies in Imperial Age. For civs who can unlock the unit by upgrade, if they get an Italian ally, the build icon is immediately available for Condottiero in Imperial Age, but existing Longswords (if applicable) will only be upgraded once the scaling-cost tech is researched (the base upgrade cost of the tech is abolished, only the scaling part and time cost remain). If the unlock is normally behind a non-scaling-cost tech (such as Sardinians) then it is given for free.

Compensatory buffs for losing Genoese Crossbowmen (and being pretty bad in ranked win rate at the moment): Gold shaft mining (the peninsula’s mountains were well mined), Heavy Scorpions (ranged) and Halberdiers (anti-cavalry).

Sardinia (Sardinians)

Key problem: Remove the pointless “more buildings” command from the build menu!

The native Sardinian population in the Medieval era were tenacious resistance fighters who survived Vandal, Iberian, North African, Pisan and other invasions over time. During the Giudicati period, the judicial armies were made of soldiers and free citizens, subject to periodic rotation, with forced conscription in emergencies.

A significant Corsican population also lived in northern Sardinian settlements, and also participated in the military. Coincidentally, young Corsicans often went to the mainland to become Condottieri. If some of these men return to the land of their birth that solves the high-end infantry problem (and makes Condottieri more glaringly an Italian regional unit).

The Sardinians often used bone-handled curved swords around 50-70cm long called leppa, with smaller versions used until the end of the 19th century. Cavalry equipment included javelins descended from the Roman verutum (shorter and lighter than the pilum, used by Velites skirmishers).

Civ Bonus: Tower stone costs discounted 40% (but limited to Guard Tower), Outposts (for spotting) cost no stone (instead of 5).
Civ Bonus: Skirmishers projectile speed +20% over generic (and lower trajectory on this lighter, faster javelin called “birrudu”), move 10% faster (lower burden), and no minimum range.
Civ Bonus: -20% siege engine cost in Imperial Age, frugality is key.
Civ Bonus: Ship gold cost -20% in Imperial Age. Our ship designs might not be the best, but we can cut some corners on the more valuable materials.

Castle Age Unique Tech: Communes and Signorie, +5% villager work rate (including construction) within weapon range of a defensive building.
Imperial Age Unique Tech (probably among the most expensive, pushing this to mid-Imperial or later): Emergency Forced Conscription, -50% gold cost for Swordsman line (so Longswords become 50F/10G), -20% food cost for foot units except Swordsmen and Condottieri. Elite military units may now be trained at Castles (This means Castles may now also train Bujakesos (Row 1 Slot 4), Arbalesters (Row 2 Slot 4) and Condotierri (Row 3 Slot 5). There is only just enough UI space to fit them all (as icons should not overlap if I recall correctly, regardless of the order of upgrades you did, technically there’s one more spot where the Imperial UT was, but that’s not needed here).

Barracks: Longswords (see UT), Halberdiers, Condottieri. Has the 3 common techs.

Barracks Unique Tech: Condottieri Homecoming—Unlocks training of Condottieri, only for the same fixed cost as Condotta Reform (500F, 300G). Obtained for free in Imperial Age with an Italian ally (whose team bonus is to give everyone the option to train Condottieri).

Archery Range: Arbalester (representing mercenary troops from Genoa), Elite Skirmisher, Thumb Ring.

Stable: Light Cavalry, Bujakesos, Bloodlines and Husbandry

Stable Unique Unit: Bujakesos, upgrades from Knight, may be described as a reskinned Cavalier derivative with conversion resistance, who can quickly throw two low-trajectory high-speed javelins before closing for melee combat, each javelin does perhaps 5 base pierce damage (upgradable), 4 range, no bonuses, affected by upgrades. Estimated 10-second (or 15) cooldown to reload one javelin. Now while Knights hit for 10 every 1.8, and Cavaliers hit for 12 every 1.8, this thing changes the dynamic to hit for 10 base every 1.5 thanks to its curved sword (assuming they used the leppa) being more agile and better against low-armor targets. It suffers against higher-armor targets though.

Siege: Battering Ram, Mangonel, Scorpion, not so great tech when we gotta hide.

Dock: War Galley, Fire Ship (not Fast), Heavy demolition ship, Cannon Galleon, Drydock and Shipwright. Relatively poor on water, though fortifying the coast is easier than average.

Monastery: Redemption (convert buildings/siege), Fervor, Sanctity, Herbal Medicine, Devotion/Faith, but no Atonement (convert enemy monks), Theocracy (only one rests after a group converts a unit), Illumination or Heresy.

University: lacks Architecture, Bombard Tower, Keep, Siege Engineers, Treadmill Crane.

Defenses: Has all four defence building sizes available (1x1 Tower, 2x2 Holdfast, 3x3 Rocca (Italian for “Fortress”), 4x4 Castle. The UI might be a bit crowded but it should still fit (Holdfast to right of Tower where Bombard Tower would be on civs that have those, Rocca to the right of Siege at upper right corner).

Reasoning is that to build defences up in the mountains, you need to be flexible in size and scale:

Holdfasts can be built beginning in Feudal Age, as basically more expensive but stronger (especially after Imperial Age hits) Towers.

Rocca require Castle Age and are reskinned Kreposts. They can build unique units but can’t research.

Castles can research and (in Imperial Age) build trebuchets.

Blacksmith: No plate mail or plate barding, because historically the Judicial armies used chain mail. This is compensated for by the Imperial Age UT.

Economy Techs: Probably full.

Castle Unique Unit: Birrudos, mail-armored fast infantry, most likely about 60 HP, base 1/1 armor, quickly throws 2 low-trajectory high-speed javelins with no minimum range for 4 base pierce damage (upgradable) per javelin, base range 3.5, and then fights with spear and shield (I suspect 9 melee attack, 2.5 reload time so between sword and spear lines, but much lower bonuses than spear line vs cavalry). Should cost about 50 food, 20 gold. Elite upgrade +10 HP, +2 attack, shorter attack interval to 2, maybe +1 pierce armor (got better at shield techniques to block arrows?). This unit should be adjusted to be cost-effective fighting normal swordsmen line if the charge attack is ready at the start. To aid in that, the base speed is 1.2, matching the Condottiero (the main ground front-liner when you can afford them) and easily able to disengage from Champions.

If testing shows they under-perform in long games, the post-UT Longswords can go down to 50F/5G. For StarCraft shout-outs, achievements may be named things like “Judicators Stealing Templar Jobs” for defeating Saracens and Turks while having Franks (Knights Templar) or Teutons on your team.

The Sea Peoples Campaign Candidates

Genoa: “The Superb Republic” mercantile wars, may include
Battle of Curzola (1298): Naval victory over Venice, capture of Marco Polo.
Defense of Chios (1346): Holding the lucrative mastic trade against Turks and pirates.
Bankrolling and Betraying Crusades
Black Sea Trade

Venice: “Gulf of Venice” rise from Byzantine vassal to colonial power, may include
Sack of Constantinople (1204): The Fourth Crusade betrayal as a naval/political scenario.
War of the Straits (1350–1355): Grinding naval war vs. Genoa over Black Sea access.
Loss of Negroponte (1470): Last stand against the Ottomans in Greece.

Italians/Papal States: “Buy Our Indulgences” centered on papal corruption, others can include:
War of the Eight Saints (1375): Florence vs. the Pope, showcasing papal mercenary armies.
“We Are Borgia” (1490s): Cesare Borgia’s conquests.
Sack of Rome (1527): Defending the city against mutinous Imperial troops (stretch timeline slightly).

Sardinians: “Judicators Must Look Beyond”, the Giudicati kingdoms’ wars resisting invaders and raiders. Title is a StarCraft shout-out.
“Eleonora of Arborea” in Joan of Arc style.

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Oh dude, Italian fellow here. I can tell you that ChatGpt really screwed up.

The current coat of arms of the Italians is the symbol of the city of Genoa, but it was also chosen as the flag of the Lombard League (an anti-emperor alliance, but also a kind of federal state) so it also fits the Italians.

Not to mention that:

  • all Italian municipalities were the first to equip themselves with firearms (14th century);
  • the decline of the Republic of Genoa began in the 14th century, following a naval defeat at the hands of the Republic of Venice (1380);
  • the Venetian land army did not exist until the early 15th century, it was only when the Venetian Republic began to expand in Italy that they realised they needed to rethink their military structure and the solution was to hire even more slaves/mercenaries of Slavic origin;
  • the decline of the Venetian Republic began at the end of the 16th century (after the Battle of Lepanto, 1571, featured in the game) due to the expansion of the Ottoman Empire.

I can’t think of a decent coat of arms. Also, keeping the Italians is ridiculous, worse than the manager who decided to make the 3 Kingdoms DLC.

What a strange choice. Also because the island has always been subject to conquest and was never a military power. First it was a province of the Roman Empire, then part of the Byzantine Empire. When it disintegrated, Sardinia was divided into four independent states until the 15th century. So the Pope created the Kingdom of Sardinia to solve the problem.

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When I read “The Sea Peoples” I think about the Bronze Age Collapse (around 1200 ACN), though they indeed came from Italy (Shekelets from Sicily, Serdelets from Sardinia…) then places they conquered (Philistines from the Aegean), pushed down by the Celts expanding :upside_down_face:

If you’re splitting Italians (I don’t think they should) at least call them The Merchant Republics for example.

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Why do I think there are Maori ?

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Well thank you. I didn’t have much choice except using AI to screen my ideas of adjustments. Do tell what you think I should change?

So no army or land policing units whatsoever for 700 years, despite having overseas holdings? Really? This is a “the laws of physics forbids it” tier problematic claim.

I picked pre-1370 (at latest) Venice specifically so it could represent pre-gunpowder trade republics, because it’s the oldest, so should have the most experience in pre-gunpowder warfare.

Here’s the Papal Shield for you. We could always rename Italians to Papal States

And the Guidicati armies resisted for longer than modern Italy has existed for.
When the game has as blanket groups as Celts and Vikings, perhaps complaining about divisions is not the best of choices.

I built their army composition from this short Wikipedia section and some of the realities of “la resistance”:

Exactly the purpose of the name, it’s a Mediterranean DLC and mostly seafarers, so…

Thanks for participating. Probably because they live on an isolated archipelago (or continental remnant) in an ocean?

I’ll be honest: I don’t think Italians need a split. Maybe Lombards, but I’m not crazy for that either.

I’d sooner see Africa or America expanded, or even a Celts split (I really don’t think there should be a civ representing Gauls and Scots at the same time).

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No real standing army or land policing units. Venice operated with a mostly mercenary and militia system for a vast majority of its existence.

Bretons (significantly Celtic holdouts) will be in my later post “Charlemagne’s Legacy”.

Briton levy longbowmen: “And how does that prevent their inclusion as units?”
Most other civs’ crossbowmen: “Are we jokes to you?”

Lombards are fine if using Goths as a placeholder. I don’t really see how to make yet-another-wave-of-G*rms-from-that-period different enough to make a civ when on the list they’d be behind the Vandals and Saxons who would have more distinctive gimmicks (the Vandals being strong at sea and the entire vandalising part…)

Oh, I’m not preventing their inclusion. I’m clarifying that, for most of their existence, Venice operated with mainly Mercenary Companies and Local Militias.

Ohohoho, you just WATCH me once I finish formatting and post “DLC Idea: Three Lies in One” for Austrians, Lombards and Free Imperial Cities. The trio are neither holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire.

Vandals collapsed in the 6th century, but I see your reasoning when the Huns were even earlier.

Saxon gimmick being…? (I decided against having Saxony separate before, but could be swayed easily enough if you’d tell me…)

If I include Saxony I can also include Vandals, in a “The Old Germanics” or similar pack (conveniently that lets me put Danes in the pack too).

I am aware of this part. Hence their unique unit is Stratioti cav archers, and their light cav line gets boosts from increasing quality of Stratioti mercenaries over time.

You do have the choice of trying to imagine stuff yourself

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Do you think people relied on a machine to be creative for them before AI? Why should we give up our pink head meat to AI NOW!?

I can tell too because you have -25% lumbercamp costs when Japan gets 50% for all 3 dropsites.

You wanna incentivize lumbercamp Strats? Make it 80% cheaper to really drive it home and not be overshadowed by the land of the rising sun. Didnt need an AI to come up with thst and it took 3 seconds. Try it out

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I did, then I used AI to check if it looked plausible/thematic.

Never paid attention to Japan, but good to know. Upgraded to 75% off lumber camps.
That’s pretty stupidly steep for Japan for all 3 drop sites… maybe I’ve been FAR too gentle on the civ bonuses in my work so far.

Other than a potential Celts split, I’d only want a Romanians/Wallachians civ (to take over the Dracula campaign so the played civs can get thwir own), but I’d probably be fine with a migration period DLC.

I feel that design is way too complex, and supposedly Indians got a lot of complaints for their old emblem (which is hard to decipher in a small size). If that design ever got adapted to the game I’d use only the crown.

Most likely the crossed keys are the more recognizable part, and should be decipherable in a relatively small size.

Of course, you could always use the early Papal flag which is red on left half and orange on right, very simple, haha.

If you don’t know one of the oldest and most unchanged bonuses in the game, maybe you shouldn’t be civ designing yet

The AI I was using for thematic checks was too cautious on magnitude of bonuses, but that can be corrected for easily enough.

You ever heard of obtaining feedback and advice while working on something?
It’s part of the reason forums even exist in the first place.

Most of us veteran long term civ crafters had to be creative and use our judgment. The fact you arent doing it yourself and trust a machine thst has no human judgement and cant possibly grasp the effects on a build order is terrifying as a prelude yo humanity’s fall

Dude The Sea Peoples is 1200 BEFORE CHRIST, why do you want them in AoE2? this is really out of the timeframe.