SOTL’s analysis makes me think that it is more glaringly obvious that the Champion needs a overhaul in it’s purpose in this videogame.
What do you all think?
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if anything Obuch probably need a cost increase.
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You talked about Champions and they are fine, haven’t you seen the HC where at some game Japanese Champions just shined? was scary
Not saying that Champions are useless; they certainly have their use. But they seem to not really be a perfect “counter” to trash units. Hussars fight Champions extremely well! Additionally, generic Champions seem to be very mediocre: only a Goths player, a Japanese player, or a Malians player can ever really make them shine it would seem.
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Yeah when you give them 50% more numbers…
16 champs take 336 sec to make.
24 hussar take 720 sec to make.
A champ does 14 damage a swing and takes 7 back. Who is honestly going to win that fight
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Lol, just omega lol
If your Hussar are defeating Champions then aren’t the units…
He’s going based on sotl video where 24 hussar beat 16 champs
Hussars, because they cost no gold, and they move bloody fast, being mounted.
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Being a trash unit and being fast doesn’t make them win 1v1 against champs.
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Okay but champs cost less food and take less time to mass up. By the time you get half your hussar on the field my entire army of champs is already on the field. And they aren’t gonna twiddle their thumbs waiting for the rest of your army
18 generic Hussars can beat 15 Champions. Not 24 vs. 16.
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Exactly. When the player tries to build a hussar army only the champs are already shredding the stables. Lol.
Again in what world would the hussar have a number advantage against a unit that trains almost 33% faster? Furthermore champs cost less resources overall.
I never said that they “win 1v1”. You are putting words in my mouth.
I merely said Hussars fight Champions extremely well. Now…I did not clarify what I meant by that, which is poor on my part, so I shall do so now:
By what I said, I meant that a group of Hussars can reasonably fight a group of Champions to a equal standoff. Even though Champions have superior armor and attack, Hussars have more HP, move quicker (i.e. they can move to another target sooner after killing their first target), and cost no gold making the Hussar vs. Champion fight go even more in the former’s favor.
Champions do not get any anti-cavalry bonus like the Pikemen/Halberdiers do; they can only rely on their superior armor, creation speed, and attack to overcome a wave of Hussars. But as SOTL has found out, and also through my own experience in team games seeing fights with Hussars vs. Champions… Hussars pretty much have a edge over Champions. This distresses me, because I freaking love Champions. But I see very few players who train Champions even more (except Goths players) but nearly EVERYONE goes for Hussars.
So I wonder: is the Champion even good anymore? And if the answer is "yes", then how can Champions be made better so that they are used more, and do what they are supposed to do: fight trash units.
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Except they don’t.
Champs do 14 damage a swing and take 7 back. That means rhey take 10 hits to die and kill them in 7.
Which means you are required to have a numbers advantage to win.
And considering that champs require less resources and time to make, you’re not going to have a numbers advantage
Okay. Going back to the OP, the solution is obvious. If champs are now bad because of the Obuch, we shouldn’t buff the champ, that would never do. Instead… We should nerf the Obuch!
Jokes aside, champs probably need a buff, and indeed militia line infantry in general, I just don’t normally use them, so I’m not really sure how. My lack of use is linked to the fact the xbows have range, and cav has speed, so militia line doesn’t really have anything going for it in that sense normally. It can work, but it probably needs a change. Or they could just nerf Obuch, that should probably be done anyway.
Obuch could use a slight nerf, but I feel like they are in a good place now. But from my other games involving Champions, it is just my opinion that Champions should be nudged a bit with a buff or two.
The only time I see mass-armies of Champions is in Custom Scenarios or CBA matches nowadays…which could be a sign that they have lost their usefulness back from Age of Kings days.
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Tell me @MatCauthon3 have you seen mass-Champions (Goths excepted) who have decidedly won Ranked or regular Team game (no custom scenarios) matches?
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Obuch is not better than Champion, it still has lower attack and must be made from Castle. Tons of units that are made from Castle are strictly better versions of the generic production buildings unit, for example Longbowmen are better than Arbalesters and Mangudai are better than Heavy CAs. Magyar Hussar is better than generic Hussar etc. etc.
If anything, their training time might be too low, but I for one am happy the devs are trying to push down Castle UU training times as they realize that getting more than 1 Castle up is unrealistic in most games before late game and people want to use UUs to broaden their strategies and to mass a UU you need the equivalent of 2-3 Barracks/Archery Ranges/… worth of production AT LEAST, which basically means that the production speed of Castles must be 2-3x that of generic production buildings as a rule of thumb IF you want this game to ever seen UUs being played and viable on maps besides Black Forest/Arena.
Else you repeat the same “mistake” of Longbowmen, where the unit is strong and looks cool but nobody ever makes it on open maps because forming a good mass takes too long and you generally choose only 1 upgrade, Arbalester or Elite Longbowman, you don’t wanna pay both.
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The Obuch armor reduction is quite powerful, because although healing repairs it, monks don’t heal very quickly, but Obuch produce quickly, and in large pitched battles, especially with continuous waves of attackers, Poles gain an advantage. I think that the armor reduction should either alternate between removing melee and pierce armor for each hit, or reduce the highest armor value for each hit, removing melee armor in the case of a tie. This slows down the rate at which it provides massive damage to armies.
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