Archers would still counter infantry especially when microed well but they would take more losses than now
Yeah, probably. Sometimes massed foot archer contingents can feel OP as heck though. Earlier today, I played a Siege of Jerusalem game as a Defender, and I eventually resorted to Teutonic Crossbowmen (I ran out of food, but still had lots of gold and wood, and I already had massive Siege Onagers and needed some other ranged unit) and they surprisingly did VERY well in that game (the objective as one of the Defenders was for me to stop the enemy players from reaching the Dome of the Rock. My opponents were Persians with cheap Crossbowmen, Sicilian Arbalesters, Turkic Hand Cannoneers and a moltry of other units like Halbss, Crusader Knights, Skirms, Trebs, etc. My blob of Teutonic Crossbows still warded off the enemy very well).
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Oh yeah…speaking of the Siege of Jerusalem, the creator of that mod, SuchAWarmonger, made it possible as the Middle Eastern/Asian Attackers to train Eastern Swordsmen. They are comparable to the Champion, being only 5 more gold and some less food, but are actually SUPERIOR to Champions, which further convinces me that Champions need a buff somehow, even though this particular case is basing evidence off of a custom scenario and not a actual Ranked game.
I am not advocating for Paladins for Poles, I think 60% gold cost reduction on Paladins is insane. But them lacking the last cav armor upgrade hurts so much especially on Hussar who’s main job is to get into the enemy backlines, kill archers and raid. Lithuanians, Turks and Magyars get better hussars pound for pound. Other civs with bonuses on FU hussar is not too bad as well. Trample damage is nice, but people will get Halbs and still chew you up.
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In that case , not a single infantry UU is better than Champion.
Agree 100%. On top of that we don’t have data for new DOTD patches. Also worth to mention new Arabia is completely different and seems like a new map. 75%+ data comes from Arabia map only. Win rate changes a lot not just for balance change, but for map generation change as well.
A dev posted some data. Poles have 51% winrate.
He also posted bohemians, top 5 and worst 5 civs. Was about 3 weeks after the dlc release
Hmm, isn’t an Obuch/Arbalester composition way too susceptible to mangonels/scorpions (and their upgrades)?
I admit I played Poles very few times, but with folkwark shouldn’t be Hussar/Obuch preferred?
Dev - Poles 50.47% winrate.
Geo - let me increase that to 51% to make them look stronger
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No I don’t think Champions need much of a buff. Maybe a bit more dmg against buildings.
Didn’t notice that. Thanks for sharing.
Do Champions need a buff now that Obuch perform their job even better at cheaper cost?
You said it as if Obuch was available for every civilization and was Barrack unit.
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Yes commonly with Celts, Japanese, Malians and Slavs. Probably also Malay, Burmese, Teutons and Bulgarians as well though rarer.
Champions are a meta unit of many strong civs and do not need buffs. The only QoL change I would like to see is MAA/Longswordsman becoming free in imperial age so you don’t have to click 4 consecutive techs to get champions.
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the only buff I could see be given to Champions is give it +1/+2 anti-Skirmisher/anti-Archer armor (ideally the bonus would apply ONLY to Skirmishers so that indeed Champions are the ultimate “late game anti trash unit”). To make Archers still strong vs Champions, this bonus armor could be offset by Archer/cav archer lines doing bonus dmg vs Militia line (which would leave Skirmisher to deal with bonus armor but not Archers).
It would be a very elegant solution and would give Champions a unique role without rebalancing infantry units as a whole.
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To my defence, I cited that number out of memory from a week ago
That would be a fine reasoning if halbs didn’t exist. The problem is, halbs change everything to your calculation: in a real trash war the advantage of champions is not just that they win 1vs1, but also that they do not get countered by halbs like hussars do. Maybe champions only barely win vs hussars in scenario, but in a real trash war champions are always mixed with halbs and they slaughter hussars + any other trash units.
With the exception of 1-2 civs (Malian), every champion civ also has good halbs, and halbs are cheaper to train and research, most likely you already have halbs on the field before even transitioning to champions.
Do you have even one example of actual game where hussars fight and win against champions, and the result would have changed if champions had bonus damage against hussars? I can’t even recall the last time I’ve seen a fight of hussars vs champions at all. Only in SOTL video.
No. They don’t need a buff. The Obuch requires a castle, that alone stops the Obuch from outnumbering the Champion in most cases. The Champion has key roles in certain situations, such as stopping the Goth Flood. The Japanese champion is great at stopping the Goth flood for example.
Buffing the Champions would make the Goths/Teutons and other infantry civs way too strong.
You need 650 stone per castle to mass the Obuch. Wheere as a barracks only costs 175 wood.
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An error on my part. That’s all… you have to say?
I mean 665 is a bit odd number, isn’t it? Anyway I’m deleting my comments as u corrected.
Giving champion line +1/+1 armor and -5 hp from Longswordman is needed. In this way, Champion would have 65 hp and 2/2 armor. Supplies tech should effect all infantries. -10 food on militia line and -5 food for other infantries is more convenient than -15 food only militia line.
Devs also realized that low pierce armor infantry and high pierce armor cavalry is bad idea from the start. Therefore, they introduce Leitis, Serjeant, Polish Winged Hussar, Obuch units.
so if low PA cavalry is supposed to be the way to go, how would cav civs beat archers? and high PA infantry still isn’t good against archers either. with the exception of Huskarl that is. you know how i know 2/2 armor champs won’t do crap? because we have Malian champs with an additional 2 PA on that, and they are still rarely used against archers. it took the devs giving Bulgarians 8 Melee Armor THS to even make those see use SOMETIMES against melee civs.
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