Do devs even know what they are doing with balance?

I suggest hiring people that have a decent understanding of what is game balance to apply to the game afterwards.

How are Lakota allowed to have a better Karni Mata, a wonder that you can’t rebuild and that cost a ton, that can be spammed and improves their units as well? And costs 50 wood. Early game its fine, with all the cards upgrade, its not fine anymore.

Late game its literally broken, allowing the lakota to OUTBOOM ports with 12 TC and 2 factories with feitoria.

Now, the ports boom is already broken on its own, how is something that surpasses it, allowed to exist?

You can’t have a range unit with less than 1.5 ROF and also a huge base damage late game, because it gets broken fast because suddendly they have huge dps and aren’t countered by their own counters. Usually for range, rof is 3, how are some units allowed to have as low as 1.35 rof in range? (hint rifle riders with tepee)

Does any thought process goes behind when buffing already good units ? or its just more: lets overtune it and then nerf till its balanced, like most of the civs released as dlc, changing also some other not necessary stuff even when the unit was already good?


I don’t see how the teepee suddenly gives lakota a better eco than ports? Surely the fact ports have eco theory and that card alone is better than putting teepees everywhere in late game as it gives a 15% eco boost to everything not a 10% eco boost. Lakota also lack a lot of eco upgrade cards and have no factories.

The civ is designed to have very strong units at the cost of worse eco. Teepees are also static so not that great compared to something like japan with daimyo and shogun boosting hp and attack wherever you move + consulate bonus of more attack + wonder boosting attack/hp/speed.

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Is this treaty only mode? or teams only mode? certainly not 1v1 lakota eco is op…

Fro supremecy, the port boom. the slowest, easiest to contain compared to India’s age2-3 long pressure plus eco and not to mention sweden brits dutch japan and malta (btw with marvelous years spain booms harder to 99 vills) to you is op?
Thats a first and no offence but like…what? Port boom op maybe if you play very passive or like nr20 mode or something. i dont think ports have been considered op in any mode of play sans feitoria release and some revolts.
lakota eco is good at food. it has a mighty 10/10% on gold yields so can barely afford anything but wakina and AR. it has expensive units. it has no defences so has 0 options when forced off hunts. the teepee stuff you speak of is largely never important in 1v1. it matters in some late game teams. treaty im sure its a big issue. but 90% of time lakota has sent most its deck before the teepee big button or adv tepee since it has again one of the worst late game ecos and must leverage its raiding to keep its own eco on par. hausa can be close to its gather rate.

as for india, simply put india has the best age2 in the game. every unit class, a fort, a 10% eco backed by more villagers for no addtional cost cept the otto ones. fast age up to 2. siege elelphants, mahouts, urumi, and those strong age2 units make ff’s not really the same danger as most age2 civs are weak to.Theere is a reason in tournamnets india is picked the most when blind picking or getting counter picked as it simply has not glaring weakness. thats why just the small buffs to karni or to otto consulate result in the civ being op. its already a premier civ. lakota and ports are low to mid in every mode i think but some nr20 and some team combos.

Aoe3 isnt a vaccum. lakota getting a 50w house replacement for 10% eco isnt so op when you realize it scales bad and there is no 4 or 5 villagers shipment, meaning with 20 villagers they are still 2-3behind most civs. ports you just stop playing hausa or lakota and realise you dont have to loose to goon/halb cannon every game and suddenly they not op. I suspect you play some differnet modes and therefore these end game combos are more impactful, but for the most popular and i think focus mostly (not alweays tho) for balance they are hardly op due to the above

This is late game, as i wrote in the post. Specifically team.

Teepee is fine early on. Gets broken late game.

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I only play team but I never see Lakota is broken especially eco in current patch, and Lakota is UP civ tier B or C too.

In Late game it almost has no difference with 12TC or 4TC.

Port boom also isn’t broken in current patch…

Just a question, what is your level and your opponent level? I am sorry to say this but your problem seems far away from the common concept in the game.

Or one way to show your record but you will be using Lakota to outboom Port under both you and your opponent are the same level, this needs to be quick due to next patch is coming.

you can just test it. Try booming with ports with 12 tc and feitoria fully upgraded 2 factories. Do the same with lakota with fully upgraded tepee. Check after 40 mins and see the eco.

This doesn’t require any ‘level skill’

if this is a nr40 thing, than yes india as problems

the thing is the game is designed first around 1v1 supremecy and team, and treaty balance wasnt a thought until DE. now devs do try and balance things when they can, but the aformentioned issues i stated is why in supremecy the port and lakota boom arent op, their late games examples you stated rarely occurs in 3v3 since it takes not having space to stack all upgrades to eco and units, and the fact india dictates the pace of the game in supremecy thanks to quick age2 and things like agra or tower forcing opponents to try and brute through their strong age2 and shipments. if ports or lakota didnt have a boom option in age3, india would just roll them over .infact india often just goes karni opening cav into lakota and there is little lakota can do to keep up (literally in case of zams).

in teams the game is actually very aggressive at higher elos. even lower can if teams are premade and coordinate. this means india is one of the best in the game to lock fb with agra and spam whatever unit the team needs and do well while getting villagers behind it. the long age2 common in team games does not benefit lakota or ports at all while being where india is comfortable. then you dont really fall off till late 4 as india and long term your units and eco is still solid. ports have vanilla eco (no one is sending 2x tc twice in a normal timespan of a team supremecy game let alone taking the card for ports) while lakota units and eco for food is strong, without coin mines or much real coin gathering their BR are extremely painfull to loose, even with teepee bufffs. just mortar/skirm/some anti cav and youll be fine since the lakota player cant turtle till late 4 anyways.

Im just stating in team or 1v1 supremecy, the inital power of india is pletny stronger and these other examples of ports and lakota late late games are either way to rare, hardly have deck space, or just are a reward for surviving that long with weaker age2-3 plays. ports and lakota are strong in teams but so is india, and really outside of haude no civ is weak in teams. you just need to apply pressure at the right time

I think you just play Lakota once and post record here to show how teepee broken is enough.

You are the one saying this is a problem, should be you to prove yourself is correct, not others to prove you wrong. Otherwise everyone is just saying something they want and mess the balance like now.

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Once more, you can just check it very easily. If you are here to derail the thread, i suggest not replying.

Age 2 15% Karni Mata (an area and destructible) was broken because it was like getting every market upgrade but tepees arent?? Lakota already were the fastest hunting and chopping

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Their hunting late game is good I know.
However they need to send infinite herd for continuously hunting, from the thread I read this is broke for team game, not treaty.
I played team game and only team game only since vanilla aoe3 and this is never being a problem unless you play “team game” as treaty.
To play team game like simcity is already mistake I also never met a port player did “12 TC boom” this is stupid and useless.
This speech is obviously showing the port player concentrate most of resource on building TC not army is already mistake play.
Plus native don’t have factories equal to 20 vils and if teepee is broken it should provide much more than 20 vils work rate than factories may be 30 or 40 vils work. I never see it is so powerful.

Aztec and indians get crates too to compensate lack of factories and they are just 1300 resources, not >5000 while lakota got XP by gathering and coins from natural resources. Meanwhile indians get XP curve nerfed again.

And yes, its about treaty, and yes Ports feitorias feels too powerfull and yes europeans are too strong by getting factories in age IV and devs still buff them.

Try 20 min treaty (or the new 15 one) and compare booming capabilities of no european civs with the euro ones

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I believe part of the reason you’re finding the Port “12 TC eco” and the Lakota eco being similar rather than solidly Port favored is because to have 12 TCs you’re using cards that should be vill eco upgrades instead.

Feitoria is 0.30f, 0.23w and 0.23c * 12 = 3.6f, 2.76w and 2.76c. Which with an age 5 eco is probably like 7 vills.

If you replace all the cards giving you more TCs (and replace feitoria as well) with all the cards that boost vills gather rates from Mills/Estates you can have a much, much better eco with Portugal than a 12 TC boom.

In treaty (nr40 or higher) with Portuguese you need Eco Theory, Rum Distillery, Sustainable Agriculture, Cigar Roller, the Unique Church card for the farming tech, Refrigeration, Royal Mint, and Textile Mill. After that you need a bunch of military upgrades, factories, etc

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And all of them have slots on a deck

Guess which civs cant

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I’d rather have four of the following: Grapeshot, Tupis, melee combat, Engineering School and/or Goon range than the small eco boost coming out of 4 cards.


I never said it was Treaty, i said it was ‘late game Team’ which sometimes can devolve into very late game. Not every team game ends in 20-30 mins.

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As other folks have pointed out, if you have 12 TC’s ever, you are doing it wrong.

In your test as Ports, did you send Refrigeration, Royal Mint, Economic Theory, and optionally Spice Trade? At least three of these should be in a Port team deck for non-treaty team games. Often you will also add a plantation card too. The ability to add more resource upgrade cards and have factories more than off-sets the teepee bonus. Other Euro civs like French are in a similar situation, though Port players tend to use more eco cards in their decks.

Although balance is not perfect, I don’t think the devs deserve the flame in this case.


In that case it probably favors Port even more if you take the right card set. In a 3v3 game I normally have at least Economy Theory, Refrigeration, Royal Mint and Textile Mill. Portuguese are more capable of playing the long game than Lakota (Lakota usually can’t get as many upgrades into their deck as Ports can afford). There is a time in which Lakota can out-eco Port using hunts, but I still tend to view Portuguese as a late game counter to Lakota. Walls + Cassa, Goon, Organ Gun +1-3 Mortars is really hard to fight for Lakota.

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