Don't add the "Teutons"

I think, that the French will be one of the eight civilizations, when the game is released. I see the inclusion of Normans and Burgundians as subgroups for further, interesting and also historically significant DLCs, to reinforce the French middleage meaning for the game.

The same could to be done with selected German principalities for the suspected Holy Roman Empire. Nevertheless i think, Relic will be about it, to choose a balanced selection of peoples from each continent, connected with the fact, that they were historically significant and not just countries of minor importance.

The recently released Burgundians for the Age of Empires 2 Definitive Edition, which made by Forgotten Empires, are in reality Flemish and Walloons. You see the same crap with the Slavs in the Forgotten campaign. This campagne actually belongs to the Wallachians and not the Slavs. The selection of the Hero Vlad draculea and the start of the Campaign location confirms this. It is incomprehensible, that they are doing such main features wrong. They put themselves on the sidelines and they are historical amateurs. Really bad for a Game, that they have been developed for over 10 years. I hope Relic does it make a lot better with Age of Empires 4.


I totally second that, those last civilisations of AoE II DE were a shameful mess, they didn’t do any historical research. I was quite upset when it came out.


Six German factions? I predict that this will never happen for sure. The game positions each faction as something unique, with different mechanics, and six factions of essentially the same region hardly contribute to the diversity. Then England had to be divided into Wales, Scotland, Ireland and so on. I’m sure no one will do that, but I really don’t mind playing for the Holy Roman Empire.


Read the following debate.

What does a Norman have in commom with an Ocotanian? What does a Welsch have in common with a Northtumbrian? Look at Delhi sultanate, they already broke the tradition.

HRE is one of the most important nations in medieval time, the nation you speak off and how ununified it was wasnt until around 1400 even then the HRE was a state just like most others, their government and numerous states is what makes the HRE so unique and a must have in a medieval game who wants every civ to be unique.

They have so much potential with mechanica haveing to do with all the states.

Also have you heard about feudalism? One of the biggest know factors in European medieval age. France wasnt any different then the HRE, in 1400s France was also a vassal mess, yet I dont see you advocating for not including them.


Unlike the Holy Roman Empire which was not a nation (nor did it come from a particular nation) but a mere umbrella political entity with little unity, the very centralized French kingdom (from the Capetians onwards) came from the strong culture/nation that was proper France, i.e. Île de France, Picardy and surroundings areas. Therefore having the French civ should not prevent to have cultures that were parts of the kingdom though not properly French - I already asked for Burgundians and Occitans to be added (so did I for Normans but I changed my mind since they could well be portray by Feudal and Castle age English - also the Occitans could be merged with Catalans).

Otherwise I have new ideas for the HRE/Teutons, much more appropriated to the actual game. Will present them later.

HRE very well was a nation, not an umbrella civ thats a term for games, this is real life. There was an emperor who ruled all the lands, like I said, the disunity you speak of didnt come since the start. the first few centuries the emperor held the same if not more power then France and even after was about as powerfull as again France was just a vassalswarm as the HRE. France wasnt as centralized as you state for most of the medieval ages and well into the 1400s dozens of vassals still existed.

The HRE is way better then France to add as you include way more people this way and have a way more distinct civ then france who will be so much similar to Britain.


No. Just no. Breaking up HRE is the same as breaking of France or Spain.


Are you seriously claiming that Italians, Saxons, Bohemians, Burgundians, Lorrains, Dutch, Francs-Comtois, Frisians, Provençaux & cie all belonged to one single nation? Like for real?

Man even a quick glimpse at the HRE wiki page would have prevented you to claim such nonsense:

The Holy Roman Empire (Latin: Sacrum Imperium Romanum; German: Heiliges Römisches Reich) was a multi-ethnic complex of territories in Western and Central Europe that developed during the Early Middle Ages and continued until its dissolution in 1806 during the Napoleonic Wars.[7] The largest territory of the empire after 962 was the Kingdom of Germany, though it also included the neighbouring Kingdom of Bohemia and Kingdom of Italy, plus numerous other territories, and soon after the Kingdom of Burgundy was added.[…]
The empire never achieved the extent of political unification as was formed to the west in the relatively centralized kingdom of France, evolving instead into a decentralised, limited elective monarchy composed of hundreds of sub-units: kingdoms, principalities, duchies, counties, prince-bishoprics, Free Imperial Cities, and eventually even individuals enjoying imperial immediacy, such as the imperial knights.[10][22] The power of the emperor was limited, and while the various princes, lords, bishops, and cities of the empire were vassals who owed the emperor their allegiance, they also possessed an extent of privileges that gave them de facto independence within their territories.
Holy Roman Empire - Wikipedia

On the French wiki page the empire is even described as an “organisation faîtière”. Do you know what it means? Umbrella.

I’ll never understand people asserting nonsense on topics they don’t have a clue about with such confidence.

Lol, what was even “Spain” by the Middle Ages? Can you teach me?

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? How does that have anything to do with my comment. Breaking up HRE/Teutons is not a smart move

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Hell, read my posts. HRE is not synonym of “Teutons”.

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In Age2 they are represented by the Teutons so I really don’t care if they are synonyms or not

Who are represented by what in AoE II…? In that game you have the Teutons, i.e. Germanic speakers of the Holy Roman Empire.

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The in-game “Teutons” actually represent many migration period’s West Germanic-speaking peoples, East Francia, the Holy Roman Empire, Crusader states, and three famous crusading orders: the Knights Hospitaller, Knights Templar, and the Teutonic Knights. They rely on infantry, cavalry, siege units, and fortifications, which is typical for a medieval European army.

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indeed they represent those people, spirit of the law did a good video about it


In AoE II you play as East Francia which is in latin Teuton something something.

Also Im not native English so nation and country are loosly translated to the same as in Dutch we barely use natie (most similar to nation and in dutch natie can mean what the HRE was) and almost in ever case land (country). Also definitions are a bit weird as a country is refering to a distinct territorial border or political entity but the definition sometimes also states its related to the word nation. While it then might not be strictly speaking be a nation it was a cointry which my point is about. Also definitions are always weird, france held territories in Spain for some time and Italy, is it then not a nation anymore? If the Netherlands conquerers Denmark, is it then not a nation anymore?

A umbrella civilization is something different then a umbrella organization. Umbrella civ is a term to describe a civ/country in AoE that never existed in real life in the time period like slavs and Indians grouped in one. HRE doesnt fall under this. Also I dont see in that link where organisation something french is said. In cases were other people are not the language you speak, its better to quote it so we can find it easier or read it.

Also about the nation thing, AoE was about people groups. I mean Vikings are a thing, while they are not a ethnicity, so its not just people groups also civilizations/countries. Norseman would be better for Vikings of strictly speaking about people groups.

The thing is the HRE was a country, unified through political structure, just like any other European nation/country, it wasnt the only vassal swarm because feudalism was a thing, it wasnt the only multi etnicity country in Europe or the world and is way more unique then France can ever be compared to England. Teutons are actually the best name for them as in latin it refers to the HRE and East Francia.

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And I thought umberlla civ meant a combination of multiple civss into one?

Yeah thats kind off what I meant, when you add multiple countries in one you get a country that didnt exist.

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Ah yes, It can also be read that way, I misunderstood :wink:

My “problem” with that is the cuntry part. It literally means Civilisation - and a civilisation has ne need to be a country, imo.

So, I would say that umbrella civs combine multiple civs which have more or less commn with each other into 1 big civilisation which didnt exist.

(Not trying to nit pick here, just wasnt sure if we meant the same thing wwhen hearing “umbrella civ”)

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East Francia did no longer exist when appeared the Teutonic knights who are the unique unit of that civ. Whatever clunky and poor description of the civilisation the developpers made, it’s pretty clear that AoE II Teutons represented medieval Germans/Duitsers/Allemands as a whole, which can work even if still a bit umbrellic. Unlike HRE which would be totally inappropriated.

Damn, have you even read the English wikipedia page I posted? There is no point in pursuing this discussion if you don’t even read my post and the links I share.

  1. HRE was not a country ; it gathered different countries and kingdoms under one umbrella political structure
  2. Latin Teutones and subsequent English Teutons did not refer to HRE in any way but only to its Germanic speakers, i.e. people descending from Franks, Saxons, Alamans, Bavarians, Thuringians & co. who are modern day German, Dutch and Frisian speakers.

I don’t mind Teutons to be added even though I would have prefered them to be divided into the different cultures they had. HRE is another story.

As to the French wiki page, here the full quote:

En tant qu’« organisation faîtière », l’empire enveloppe de nombreux territoires et sert de cadre juridique à la cohabitation des différents seigneurs. Ces princes et ces ducs sont presque autonomes mais non souverains. Ils reconnaissent l’empereur comme le dirigeant de l’empire et se soumettent aux lois, aux juridictions et décisions de la Diète d’Empire, mais prennent une part active à la politique impériale sur laquelle ils influent, à commencer en élisant l’empereur mais aussi en participant aux diètes et autres représentations corporatives. Contrairement aux autres pays, les habitants ne sont donc pas les sujets directs de l’empereur. Chaque territoire immédiat a son propre seigneur, et chaque ville libre d’Empire a son maire.
Le Saint-Empire tend finalement à être défini comme un « État complémentaire »18, une notion introduite en 1999 par Georg Schmidt (de)19 et qui s’est imposée20.
L’histoire du Saint-Empire est marquée par la lutte quant à sa nature. Impuissant à briser les entêtements régionaux des territoires, il a fini par se morceler dans une confédération informe. C’est la Kleinstaaterei21.

Which just confirms what I’ve always argued in this topic.

Oh en het Nederlandse wikipedia artikel zegt hetzelfde.