Dravidians are terrible

I understand that the armoured elephant example wouldn’t work in the game. The only way to change them for Dravidians without changing it for the other civs is through a civ bonus. But that kind of modification through a civ bonus is unprecedented. It was just a brainstorming thing.

But if it is done, you don’t need armoured eles in large numbers, you only need 1 or 2. After having played them for a while, the best army comp for Dravidians imo is pikes+2 to 4 elephant archers + crossbow + skirms. If they have skirms, you push your elephant archers and your skirms forward. If they don’t have enough skirms, your team should stand a chance. If they push knights, you push your pikes. You can’t have your pikes in front because their skirms will kill your pikes. This composition has three main weaknesses. First is that it is expensive, and if you do this, you can’t afford a mangonel early. Second, you don’t have a unit that can deal with mangonels easily like knights or scouts. Third and most important, you don’t have anything against buildings. Basically, this is a composition that will help you hold on, barely. They can just add a lot of skirms, and you are done. You need something against their skirms and yours just won’t cut it. This is where the armoured elephant is good. It only has 2 roles, tank skirm fire, and take out buildings. If they make knights, it should be able to withstand knights, and pikes can be a weakness.

Now all that being said, I do agree on the food point. Almost all elephant civs have bonuses that can either let them produce elephants for a cheaper cost, gather more food, or add survivability to elephants. Dravidians don’t have the first or second on land maps, and Medical corps is garbage.

Well, thank you. :heart:

With faster working Range, you can stay at 1 Range and put down farms. Or create even earlier pressure with 2 Ranges.

They are not elephant civ. If they still want to play EA, faster range helps. And with faster range, they don’t have to play EA in every game. They can comfortably play full Archer the whole game like Japanese.

When I suggested the Kshatriyas swap, I suggested removing supplies so their champs would be balanced. I don’t think 60 food EAs would be a problem when they die to skirms so quickly.

Are they that weak in early castle age 1v1? Dravidians can get a free university with that wood bonus and transition smoothly and quickly into xbow They can be countered by Knight + skirm, but that is very expensive for early castle age. You have to upgrade 2 separate unit lines and the units themselves cost a lot of food.

I think Dravidians should have enough time to get a castle and get a UT, if it isn’t too expensive. In a recent Viper vs ACCM game, Viper was behind most of the game and did not know what to make vs Dravidians. He only really started winning in Imp.

Kshatriyas works too well for Gurjaras, it is OP on them. But most Dravidian units cost a lot of food for what they do. I think with the cost reduction, their units could be balanced.

It could be good, but the main issue is the cost. Wootz steel costs > 1/2 the resources required to go to Imp, so I don’t think it is better than just saving the resources and going to Imp (considering the enemy also has similar resources). Compared to that, Kshatriyas only costs 200 food and 400 gold, which is really affordable for mid-late Castle age.

This is a nice nerf to Britons that does not change their identity, but maybe Vietnamese or Koreans (especially after the xbow nerf) could use this TB more. Dravidians already have free extra wood for ranges and can get the faster production that way.

Vietnamese have something similar, so I don’t think the devs will give this to Dravidians.

300 wood is nice for land maps, but OP for hybrid and water maps. Free balistics is OP on top of free wood.

These could be good. Barracks techs not costing food would really help vs eagles and also transition to pikes easily. Redemption and fervor should definitely be added to their tech tree.

It doesn’t get better by mid-castle age. It can get better by late castle age, if they don’t go for archers, and you have urumis. But urumis cost like 65 food, and aren’t cheap units by any means.

Viper was behind in that game because I don’t think he’s played dravidians too much. Watch the videos I’ve linked. Hera would have seen that coming way earlier, because he’s just more familiar with that strat. If you give viper enough time, I’m sure he’d figure it out too. Also, he won the game anyway. ACCM had nothing by the end.

Also, this is a bigger issue at mid-tier games. People aren’t able to micro well enough to manage with such a weak composition.

Any civ changes boosting eco would be good. I want to see some buff to ele archers, and dravidians should get elite BA, without wootz steel on stable units. They need more options than just relying on squishy infantry and slow archers.

Yeah maybe. Can be changed to EA and Armored ele +50 HP. Or EA and Armored Ele +30 HP as well as regenerate 30HP/min.

Of course. Any time they have moved one tech from one age to other, they have tweaked the price.

I saw the Hera video you linked. Dravidians go xbow and then siege and lose to knight + skirm. They don’t go for castle (offensive or defensive) because there is currently nothing good for them in the castle. Not sure if this is before the latest patch, but Dravidians now get BBC so defensive castle and going to Imp would be a good strat vs Slavs. Kshatriyas would encourage this strat more.

Kshatriyas would affect Urumis as well. I think it could work if Dravs get a defensive castle. Defensive castles usually stall the mid game anyway and make it necessary for the enemy to go to Imp.

There are not a lot of eco bonuses left, I think every possible farm bonus has already been given to other civs. Non-farm eco bonuses could make Dravidians too strong on water and hybrid maps.

Do you mean EBE? While it would be nice if Dravidians had more options, EBE is too expensive and not avaialble in mid-castle age. I know people like the unit, and it can be good for TG, but it is just not good for 1v1. In Wallhalla finals game 3 Yo stops 30+ Bengali EBE with only camel archers and pikemen.

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Hmm. Kshatriyas wouldn’t be a terrible option, certainly. It would be far better than medical corps. I’m not sure if it would be the best option, but I’m open to the idea.

Not sure if this is before the latest patch, but Dravidians now get BBC so defensive castle and going to Imp would be a good strat vs Slavs. Kshatriyas would encourage this strat more.

Let’s be honest, fast imperial is a strat only viable in super closed maps. Dravidians don’t have the castle military force, or mobility to pressure their opponent when sacrificing booming for fast imperial. Sure, you hit imperial and have bombards. But by that point, your opponent would have a significant eco lead, which translates into more knights (or crossbows). In imperial age, that translates to a power spike for your opponents. There are certain civs for which a fast imperial would be worth it, but Dravidians aren’t it. It could be balanced with some eco bonus, and kshatriyas might even work, but someone would have to do the math/play it out to see.

Honestly, they could buff elephant archers and make them a viable option. That alone would significantly help.

I know. The point is to have more options (for all civs). They don’t need bloodlines, or the last armour. They don’t even need wootz steel. But they might be useful in early imp, to soak up some arrow fire for your weak urumis. If your opponent only made skirms and invested heavily into that, you might be able to exploit that by making a few battle eles.

At this point, making BEs for dravidians is a completely unviable option. That means your opponents know exactly what you have in castle age. If they are made slightly more viable, it will keep the opponent guessing, and that alone can be useful.

Vietnamese TB should be the TC revealing one. As for Koreans, I personally think their TB is one of the weakest and needs a change. However, no one agreed with me in a different thread. Also Koreans by design is not a rushing civ.

That’s true. But it is not that strong for them.

+1
They are another civ I really like. But they are also too weak :frowning:

200 wood is a small power spike. It gives you like 5-10 minutes of advantage. If you can’t use that advantage, it’s useless. It’s really good in feudal, kinda okay in castle, and almost useless in imperial.

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I agree it is not the best option, I just don’t see any other way to give Dravidians a good food bonus that is not OP. Even then, I think we should still maintain their core playstyle of being relatively weak in castle age so that other civs have a window to beat Dravidians. Another way to fix Dravidians is to give them Knights (as suggested by others), but I am not a fan of this.

Fast imp on open maps is a valid strat, but it involves way more castle age military than what you do for closed maps. “Fast” generally implies low eco rather that age up time. Fast Imp arb + treb is a valid strat for open maps even if your arbs are generic. It depends on getting ahead in Feudal age and pressuring with xbow in Castle age. It is Lierrey’s specialty, but I have not seen him do it with Dravidians.

Devs are balancing EAs around Bengalis. If they are made strong for Dravidians, it would make them OP for Bengalis. An increase to their base accuracy is the most that they can get without disturbing the Bengalis. Maybe increase their firing rate bonus to 33%?

EBE upgrade is too expensive in most 1v1 situations and not worth it unless you are making something like 30 of them. If you want to soak arrows, just make regular BE in early Imp. Kshatriyas is more useful for this strat.

Vietnamese TB is currently Imp skirm for everyone. It should be TC revealing, but devs don’t intend this otherwise they would have done it already. Maybe they think it promotes cooperation in TGs. Koreans used to be a Trushing civ. More archer production would be really nice and stack with their free archer armor to make a decent archer civ without buffing their UU. Not against giving it to Dravidians though.

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I don’t think they are insanely OP during imperial age, or anything. Unless you are playing water maps, in which case yes. Even getting to the imperial age doesn’t fix their core problem of not having a power unit. Although they are a lot better in imperial age, thanks to elite urumis, elite elephants, and two good trash units. Certainly above average.

Fast imp on open maps is a valid strat, but it involves way more castle age military than what you do for closed maps. “Fast” generally implies low eco rather that age up time. Fast Imp arb + treb is a valid strat for open maps even if your arbs are generic.

Without any eco advantages for your civ? that doesn’t feel useful. If you are poles or something, it would make more sense. Can you give me a link or something, so that I can see how it can be used?

Devs are balancing EAs around Bengalis. If they are made strong for Dravidians, it would make them OP for Bengalis. An increase to their base accuracy is the most that they can get without disturbing the Bengalis. Maybe increase their firing rate bonus to 33%?

Bengalis are the worst civ right now, I think. I don’t think that buffing EAs would really change anything. I would be more worried about gurjaras.

EBE upgrade is too expensive in most 1v1 situations and not worth it unless you are making something like 30 of them. If you want to soak arrows, just make regular BE in early Imp. Kshatriyas is more useful for this strat.

Yes, true. They won’t be used in most cases, true. But the point is to have an option. Creative players will find a use, either for mind games or in niche situations.

They are not identified as an elephant civ. Yet the power units available to them in the problematic castle age are all elephants and urumi swordsmen. They don’t get archer bonus since they are not an archer civ. I used to play japanese a lot as a beginner. I was enamored with Samurai and Ninjas as a kid. But soon enough I learnt that franks can easily overwhelm them since I can’t outproduce power units like samurai against knights. Castles are not cheap and they put economy behind opponent by a considerable margin. The Japanese have still remained a popular civ primarily due to nostalgia. However Pros hardly pick them on land maps despite having fastest attacking infantry against cavalry civs. The reason why Japanese infantry is not used in castle age is its poor speed. Pros with japanese primarily go for cav archers in castle age not archers. Without any bonus to spam like Goths, an infantry civ will not use infantry at all. Since Dravidians lack any mobility at all in early castle age. A full spam of trash units is one way to defend their base against knight and skirm push. Another method is to castle vulnerable locations to protect economy from knight raids. But castles will put Dravidian economy behind which will eventually kill them. The kshatriyas tech swap is a good idea. But it comes too late in the game to consider the options it opens up. A better civ bonus for faster food collection is needed for Dravidians.

The +15 fishing bonus is redundant for Dravidians. The wood bonus and dock bonus can easily win water in early to mid feudal ensuring their dominant water meta. The fishing bonus should be replaced with a common bonus like faster food collection of 5%, 10% and 15% in Feudal, Castle and imperial age respectively. Both Trash units as well as Urumi of Dravidians can benefit from this. Dravidians with good economy bonus can afford a one TC play in early castle age while not falling too behind his opponent’s economy. This will enable Dravidians to outstrip opponents upgrades and defend with lesser units while castles protect the economy from knight raids.

Woots steel upgrade is best availed in castle age since Dravidian infantry and light cav are still glass cannons. Woots in castle age can be the power spike they need to push back and expand their eco with new town centers. If the opponent player goes imperial and tries to treb down castles. The Dravidian player needs to catch up and fight back with bombard cannon with halbs as meat shield. But to have a strategy of plenty of trash units to throw at the enemy in imperial age Dravidians do need food bonus pretty bad. If they have food bonus, we may be able to use some light cav mass or an occasional elephant in imperial age as a raiding unit too.

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What I meant is, Kshatriyas is not going to help with their weakness and only strengthen them further in the niche situations where they’re already decent - like closed map TG or in some niche matchups where Urumis can be used like against Slavs or Bulgarians if it remains an even game until 40 mins for some reason.

Not so much of a smooth transition. Maybe on frigid lake or morass EW start but regular RM, they won’t be fast enough to castle age to break-inside, get ballistics and snipe most of the military and cause idle time.
And suppose in the event where you couldn’t get much value from early ballistics, and opponent did +2 armor e.skirms, you’re now forced to micro mangonels and hope you’d win the micro war. No mobility, no possibility of counter-raids. Lack of knights or an alternative that’s strong against ranged units is a huge deal.

First of all its empire wars and the second most passive map in the RBW-L map pool. And still the game actually beautifully explains the weakness Dravidians have. ACCM did the exact thing you suggested, go aggressive with crossbows along with some faster shooting skirms, killed some vills before TC was up. But then what, nothing else solid to follow- up. When ACCM did push with siege and some skirms, Viper just made 1 knight, checked that he had no monks and sniped both the mangonels out and then defended with his own skirms. With any other civ, ACCM would have added his own knights too to push Viper’s tcs.
And in imperial age, Viper just cleaned up with light-cav, warwolf trebs and skirms even without having chemistry. And this is against an archer civ which is supposed to be an even or favorable matchup for Dravidians.

Because of strong military options that cost food and a long lasting food eco bonus. What’s the purpose on giving a food discount to unusable units that are niche?

Suppose if Dravidians have another bonus which helps them get to next age faster with a modified build and stay aggressive (say food income 10% faster or free fletching or something strong and useful like that), then its a valid point that the wood bonus in addition to the other eco bonus is sufficient to get a military lead. Right now its not enough of an advantage. Strong archer civs that get a food bonus like Britons, Mayans will modify their build to put more vills on wood and simply add their second range around the same time. And these civs also have an option to tackle skirms without doing skirms of their own.

Firstly, I want to apologize for a typo. I meant 60 food EA, not 60 EAs. I have fixed it now. Secondly, I don’t think a food discount helps in closed map TGs where eco is safe and unraidable and you can have as many farms as you want. It helps more with 1v1 castle age where you need food for units, vils and upgrades. Kshatriyas helps by reducing the number of farms you need to make units, so you can spam them more easily. Adding LC to support your main army will be easier to justify at 60 food. Currently, they lack so many upgrades, you can’t justify it.

My point with this video was that Dravidians don’t die in Castle age, not that they win as they are currently. They definitely need a buff.

Britons beat many “anti-archer” civs with long range and warwolf. Dravidians are not special in this regard.

Kshatriyas also affect non-niche units like LC, halbs and skirms. This could encourage a Byzantine-like playstyle if they get some buffs in this direction. Byzantines make mostly trash throughout the game and don’t have good power units. They rarely make knights and go fast imp arb + treb. Maybe Dravidians could get a discount on Imp food cost to help with this strat. With this and Kshatriyas, they could be a pseudo-Byzantines which would be really interesting.

New Buff Proposal: Castle, Cavalry and elephant units affected by barracks techs ( Arson, Squires and supplies ) starting in castle age.

Hi, fellow joker. Elephant are already cavalry :wink:

I have been proposing this buffs for burmese (togethere removing husbandry to avoid speedy hussars) for long time, although never included supplies as part of the buff because supplies affects only one unit type.

For dravidians, it would be a tricky buff to balance. Their elephant archers with arson and supplies would be far better than older indian EA. Burmese cav archers at least are very bad in comparison.

You can say then that the buff should onlynaffect stable units. But even so, it would be too much. Dravidians already have discounted barrack techs, extending them for almost all units is excesive IMHO, since their battle elephants or light cav can have a use at some moments. As far I remember, there is no civ with a discount in a tech/building that also affect additional unots than intended.

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That’s something. Its basically the same as squires impacts cavalry. Urumi swordsmen already benefit from barrack techs, +2 extra attack for elephants is not much of a buff.

Uff… That particular game was from Enclosed which is passive with a lot of resources, unlike most standard open maps. So players usually pick cav/camelcivs and take the economic approach on that map most of the times. But that particular game ACCM was pretty dead once he lost the forward mangonels. Lets say some other good civ like Tatars or Cumans for ACCM. After the initial crossbow raid, ACCM could have switched into cavalry and pushed with mangonels+monks pushed Viper back, and raided him a lot. Like Liereyy did with Franks against Viper as Saracens. Unfortunately there’s no follow up for Dravidians after a decent initial raid. The only follow-up was the one that ACCM did but it’s not a feasible strategy without having knights or eagles in the army composition.
To get a better understanding watch the Tatoh vs Jordan Quarter finals decider game in RBW-L. Tatoh as Byzantines against Jordan as Vietnamese. Both players were doing crossbow-skirms, both players have some bonus to play that combo. Jordan took the hill with skirms and tried to put a castle and go imp quickly. Tatoh added knights, pushed him back forcing a defensive castle down the hill and used those knights to raid, pushed the tc in the right side and Jordan didn’t get any value from his early imp. Had it been Dravidians, Jordan would have successfully dropped the castle on the hill, hit imp and eventually won the game with full map control.

Like a lot of people have pointed out, at that stage of the game Dravidians are actually not bad. Obviously the food discount would be helpful and compensate a bit for the weakness of their light cavs IF the game is even and has reached the 50+ min mark.

Byzantines get the discount for FREE and its a full 25% discount, not just on food. Also they have that discount on Camels which makes it easier to protect their skirms and archers from getting wiped up by Knights, extra hp on buildings to give them more time to defend. Dravidians don’t have any of those. No camels, no building hp bonus or anything of that sort to enable map control or defend, no unit cost discounts by default.
An imp food discount could make them a popular pick on some closed maps but they won’t be a pseudo Byzantine.

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I have suggested supplies to affect all these units to compensate Dravidians Elephant archer and siege elephants food cost ( other civilizations have wood cost for CA and Rams)

If urumi swordsman are affected by supplies then it would encourage people to use them irubathi aintham puli kesi avargale.

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