Faster Archery Ranges are key to the Briton identity, the bonus simply does not have to be the team bonus if that is your concern. It is the type of bonus that would define any civilization that had it.
I like a lot about them. And I donāt play exclusively water. I favorite MegaRandom and usually ban Arena.
200 Wood on Feudal allows for Trushes or a Fast Castle Boom. 200 Wood is the cost of one building less.
~10 Vill minutes saved. Or just do a Flush with Archers, with the range already paid for.
It is a long lasting eco bonus, because an early game advantage compounds over the entire game.
You could do a fast scout rush. The stable is not immediately useful though, since you donāt get Bloodlines or Husbandry.
Setting a gather point for a single Battle Elephant to go wreck some stuff and make the opponent deal with is always a fun option you get with the BE civs, though.
And the BE works just fine for killing off Castle Age Siege, if you do have a stable.
Late-game, Wootz Steel Light Cav kills vills in 4 hits, like a fully upgraded Hussar.
But theyāre also far more dangerous to non-elephant cavalry, than a Hussar would be.
They get Halberds that win against all other Halberds.
With the Skirm bonus, they are contender for the best trash in the game.
I use Monks in every game and get usually at least 1 conversion.
But rarely do I have enough monks on the field to justify any upgrades. So that does not matter to me.
They have good siege. They get everything, but Siege Engineers.
That +1 range would give them great siege, but I donāt want them to have this.
They might already be too strong.
From experience I know, I can still get a lot of value from the Mango-line without.
Imp Heavy Scorps? Donāt know. I rarely use Scorps in the first place. For Trebs it hardly matters.
Their long-range Bombard Canons, get to hide behind a wall of mid-range Elephant.
Who needs range?
I think you might be underestimating how strong the Elephant Archer is.
I did anyway. I was likeā¦ itās like an archer, but on an elephantā¦ which is slow.
It seemed like the most underwhelming idea to me.
So before looking it up or thinking too long about it, write down the answers in the reply to the following three questions:
(assuming full Castle Age upgrades)
How many X-Bow shots does it take to kill an EA? How many EA shots to kill an X-Bow?
Is the X-Bow 10% faster? 20% faster? 30% faster? (hint: Dravidians donāt get husbandry)
Here are the answers. Did you get close?
https://www.aoe2database.com/damage_calculator/161/27/en
[set Civ to Dravidians and opponent civ to Huns, if you think Aztecs are too weak without thumb ring]
Hard to mass. But you can bide time with Skirms. When you want to push out with your unstoppable EA-ball, you can add cheaply-upgraded Pikes to protect against knights. Add Light Cav against monks.
But you want mobility? Easy. Put your cheap Infantry or Urumis into 1.3 speed Siegetowers.
Pop out Urumis, do 100+ splash damage in a 0.5 tile radius, regarrison, count to 15 (real-time) and repeat.
10 seconds for Elite. Not sure if itās an effective strat or just gimmicky, but itās a lot of fun.
I thought extra range was their identity.
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yeah sure. koreans would be defined by this bonus /s
exactly
i guess you need to learn what long winded means, not that you care
this makes them better where theyāre already decent, so its literally counter productive because it reduces the odds of buffing them where they arent that great
this is an old suggestion and i still support it, its literally burmese +1 dmg.(because 2hs is such a bad upgrade, and the bonus damage is inconsequential) but you have to pay for it, so thereās no way its OP, because the power drops off again in imperial (relative to burmese)
you were the one that imagined i said it, but i kept ignoring it because it was bad to have made that assumption
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Itās really not. The only long lasting eco bonuses areā¦actual lasting eco bonuses. 1 time or Age Up free res give you the opportunity to invest in things that might get you ahead if you manage them ideally (mainly by investing into military and killing vills, or fish booming on water/hybrid). Outside of water/hybrid maps, there are tons of civs that have more relevant eco bonuses that translate far more easily into more consistent leads.
What does this prove? This is like trying to show that a Teutonic Knight rush is a viable strategy because TKs are good against generic swordsmen. Good performance in a MikeEmpires type matchup against a certain type of unit does not equate to viability across the board.
Definitely gimmicky, hard to scale, and easy to stop by most people who know what theyāre doing. Like any gimmicky tactic, it has the potential to catch someone off guard and be effective at times, but itās not a great solution for a food-heavy unit with 0 pierce armor.
For the record, I like Dravidians as well (mainly for closed map TGs where their weaknesses arenāt crippling), but for most land (and especially open) 1v1s theyāre just too weak outside of decent but predictable archer play. Theyāre almost a good civ for general play, but they have some key weaknesses that prevent them from quite making it.
If you think youāre getting great value by fighting enemy heavy cav with wimpy light cav that ignore armor, wait til you see what halbs can do. Outside of some early game surprise mind-game scout rush, Dravidian stable isnāt worth using most of the time.
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All goodā¦but most civs have an equivalent savings or gathering worth bonuses. Example - Britons about 170 wood from the extra villager time from the 25% faster sheep and ~270 wood from 2 town centers which is quite normal, Franks 150 +250 on mill upgrades alone, another 100-150 worth of resources from the faster berries. The 200 wood is quite a decent bonus on land for a generic civ which has husbandry, knights, ca, xbows, elite skirms etc like how Ethiopians get. However for a civ with a huge handicap like Dravidians its quite insufficient and mostly sufficient only on water maps.
No its not. Its a power spike bonus. Free wheelbarrow/handcart, Polish folwark bonus or gold from stone, Khmer farm bonus, Hindustani cheaper vills, Burgundian cheaper eco techs, Mayan extra vill and longer lasting resources, Aztecs +3 carry capacity, Chinese discount on all techs - These are long lasting advantages, their impact keeps adding advantage as the game moves on even if you donāt do any damage to opponent eco. Whereas 200 extra resources on hitting castle means you need to make use of it to do damage right away. And again thatās quite possible if you have that melee unit which is good against ranged units. Otherwise probably not.
As you pointed out, since the unit doesnāt scale well into the castle age, its not the best idea to invest a lot into it. 3 or 4 scouts is fine but it isnāt the ideal strategy for this civ since you donāt want to get upgrades as thereās no knight transition possible like other common scout rush civs.
I guess you have never seen how fast they convert to monks. Its 190 resources down the drain. Even civs like Khmer, Burmese with very strong elephants donāt open elephants in castle age. Its simply not a good idea.
This is true ONLY when you managed to get the game to 1 hr and stay even. This is very unlikely since most civs get better bonuses and military.
What youāre asking is the equivalent of how many light cav hits does it to kill a knight or how many knight hits does it take to kill a Burmese elephant. I donāt need to answer these questions because I know that the slower unit canāt force a fight in most situations and that they get countered hard to monks.
Light cavs lack husbandry and bloodlines to snipe monks effectively and run away. So unless its pure monks with 0 army, whatever you say isnāt a likely defense.
And LOL, Siege towers man? Seriously? Dude thatās the worst kind of investment. It costs an insane amount of resources. By the time you do EA, castle up, get 20-30 castle age Urumi swordsman, put them into 3 siege towers, opponents will be imp with fully upgraded imperial meta army for their civ.
On shore fish maps like African springs or Fish n fish maybe if you did a lot of early damage with man-at-arms, went heavy on shore fish then some of this is possible (not Siege towers + urumis even then) Otherwise in a standard land map, you can never afford so much food and do more damage than your opponent does to you.
Good siege is something important for closed maps and doesnāt matter a lot on open maps. And in such closed maps, you need monk techs and siege engineers.
Why? You can make such an argument for top-top civs like Burgundians or Hindustanis. What on earth does this civ have to justify missing upgrades on everything? Ethiopians have the same level of bonuses in terms of economy but much better siege with unique tech and siege engineers for closed maps and knights, camels, husbandry for open.
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+1dmg, but also extra antibuiilding damage which would be useful for forcing fights in niche circunstancesā¦ and allows to have almost instant champions in imperial age while burnese have to train 2 upgradesā¦
At the end, the effect would be similar to wootz steel in castle age. Wootz steel would affect more units, but requires a castle. In fact, both buffs could be given to dravidians to have wootz steel THS in castle age but i think this could be an overbuff (it would feel like a +6 damage).
Sorry about thatā¦ Typical forums missreading.
The thing is that there are not much food eco bonus left.
I could push for extending their fishcarrying bonus to huntables, but goths already have that.
All natural resources with food have one civ bonus for them. Except wolves.
Almost all techs have some kind of food or unspecified discount in a lot of civs (burgundians eco and stable techs , bulgarians siege and blacksmith, italians university and docks, burmese monasteriesā¦). Only techs from markets, castles and archery ranges are not discounted in any civ outside chinese. And dravidians dont need a buff for castle and market techs for dure
The same can be said about units with foos cost. Hindusranis have cheaper villagers, byzantines cheap trash, berbers and magyars cheap stable, malay cheap battle elephants. And gurjaras UT on top of thatā¦
Maybe dravidians could receive a discount for their armored elephants because are the worse of all civs. But this wont help in early castle age
A bit reductionist, but it is a part of it.
I get that this is supposed to be a mock, but the bigger question is why? You seem to think that there is one bonus that supremely defines a civilization, and not the greater skillet of bonuses melded with tree. Some bonuses are indeed forgettable, but some by design must define the civilizations associated with them when a proper fit. The Koreans are in fact a capable fit with that bonus. The Briton Shepherding bonus, like the Town Center wood reduction bonus all define the Britons and their build. When you play the Britons, you only ever think of using a minimum of 5 Shepherds, and anyone who plays the Britons would perceive a major difference in their feel and play without that bonus. You may not like that the faster Archery Ranges are so linked to Briton play in 1v1, but they are.
The Dravidian civ food bonus could be farms have double the food (2 x 175).
The bonus is essentially ācrop rotationā which they lack becoming a civ bonus. This will not destroy game balance. The same is available for other civs later in the game. They can save a bit on farm upgrades. With the saved wood, they can create more fishing ships early in the game. This flexibility maintains their water meta as well. This is a very scalable resource for a civ that needs to spam units. They could even remove upgrades like Horse collar and Heavy plow if it is an overkill.
MY idea to buff is a combination of:
Barracks cost -75w
Medical corps is civ bonus, buffed to 40hp/m
New Castle UT reduces cost of elephants by x %
Wood bonus is staggered to +200/+300/+400
Siege engineers
Buff Urumi??
This is basically a wood bonus because the food gathering speed is not increased (although you can always move one villager from wood to food). Besides, it is esentially the sicilian farm bonus on #################### edit: i used a common pharmacological term but is censored
Medical corps as civ bonus could start at current effect in castle age and then increase in imperial age. 40 HP regeneration for free in castle age sounds like very useful for elephant archerd with a bit of micro.
Reducing the cost of elephants is tricky. Battle elephants would end very similar to malay but wothout the possibility of elephant rush. Dravidian Elephant archer lack husbandry and bloodlines (and parthian tactics?), but besides that is fully upgraded. Adding a discount throuhh UT could be an over kill unless the discount is minor. However, I agree with a discount for siege elephant.
I personally feel that they dont need siege engineer because theynarent designes around siege. But we can add an antisiege damage to urumis (at least to their charged attack) so they gain the ability to snipe enemy siege.
Exactly, either you can use your vills to create more food, wood or create another fishing ship based on the situation. It gives a boost to the economy based on what is needed. It affords more flexibility. Dravidian strength is going dual ranges in feudal age. But with this they can even go for another TC quite early in castle age along with military buildings. So economy does not need to be sacrificed to stop knight push. Since farms donāt expire quickly, you can focus on defense against multiple raids too.
Scicilian bonus stacks up. Dravidian bonus is a one time thing. Horse collar and Heavy plow will be giving only +75 and +125 respectively unlike 2xbonus for Sicilians. Remember Dravidians donāt get crop rotation. So this tech balances the game on closed maps.
crop rotation is almost useless in Arabia 1v1, so it doesnāt matter if they get it or not. In closed, maps, it can feel more balanced. But still, it is more useful than sicilian bonus that this in castle age, while dravidians could spend all feudal and early castle age without horsecollar at all
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Yup! With this bonus, Dravidians donāt need to worry about reseeding till more than 24 min into the game. By which time the early castle age threat would be handled. The farms can be reseeded safely.
With this bonus, Dravidians probably will knock down 80% civs before mid Castle Age. I composed a point system for Earl Game (Dark and Feudal Age), Mid Game (Castle and Early Imperial Age), Late Game (Trash Wars period).
According to this system, Dravidians is 5/8 point in early game (Dark and Feudal Age) in Land 1v1 maps.
- +200W = 2 point
- 50% cheaper MAA = 1 point
- 25% faster attacking Skirmisher = 2 point
ā total = 5/8 points which is B tier
+175 food on farms is 4 points eco bonus in earl game which makes Dravidians 9/8 which is OP. For instance, Franks free horse collar is 2 points, 15% berry bonus is also 2 points, 25% hp scouts is 2 points, total Franks 6/8 points A tier in earl game (Dark and Feudal Age).
According to this system, Aztecs, Mayans and Burgundians are 9/8 in Mid Game (Castle and Earl Imperial) which make them OP in the game. Other civs are fine.
Aztecs Mid Game (Castle and Earl Imperial):
- 11% faster military production = 2 point
- Eagle Warrior = 2 point (debatable)
- Monk gain 5 hp per Monastery techs = 2 point
- +3 carry capacity = 2 point
- Relic generate 33% gold = 1 point
ā total = 9/8 point which is OP.
Mayans Mid Game:
- 20/30% cheaper archer and Plumed Archer = 3 point
- El Dorado (Elite) Eagle Warrior = 3 point
- Resources last 15% longer = 2 point
- Walls 50% cheaper = 1 point
ā total = 9/8 which is OP.
Burgundians Mid Game:
- Cavalier in Castle Age and early 50% cheaper Paladin in Imperial Age, and Coustillier = 3 point
- 40% food cheaper eco upgrades = 3 point
- Gunpowder units has 25% bonus attack = 2 point
- Relics generate both gold and food at the same rate = 1 point
ā 9/8 point which is OP.
Notes:
8+/8 = OP
8/8 = S+
7/8 = S-
6/8 = A
5/8 = B
4/8 = C
3/8 = D
2,1,0/8 = F (Underpowered)
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Dude, the system is very nice. It does help visualize civ bonuses. As you see from your own method, Dravidians despite being a rush civ like aztecs, only get 3 bankable civ bonuses compared to 5 for Aztecs and 4 each for the others. So the civ is clearly handicapped. Only one tech the 25% faster skirms is scalable, a 3 m@a rush is a one time thing, the 200 wood bonus is useful only in feudal not in other ages.
The food bonus I suggested is an indirect buff to castle age play where Dravidians are very weak not feudal age. Let us assume I had 2 weak villagers who lured boar farming near my TCs. With the bonus, farms will last 2x10 mins. This is 120 wood you will save by not reseeding in feudal age. This is not even enough to build a range or stable. Utmost, either a fire galley or a couple of fishing ships can be made when playing water which maintains their water meta. But on land maps. it may probably give vills more wood to house wall instead of collecting lumber. The 6-8 more vills I put on farms will not save me wood till mid castle age. So the concern that early castle age play being 80% better then other civs is unwarranted.
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This was Dravidians Early game, Dravidians Mid Game is even worse (Castle Age and Earl Imperial Age).
Dravidians Mid Game:
- +400 Wood in total = 1 point,
- 25% faster attacking Skirmisher and Elephant Archer = 2 point.,
- 50% cheaper Barracks techs = 1 point,
- No Knight = -1 point,
ā total = 3/8 point D Tier.
I also created late game tier list.
Dravidians Late Game:
- Wootz Steel Halberdier = 2 point,
- 25% Skirmisher, Elephant Archer, FU Arbalest and HC = 1.5 point,
- Wootz Steel Urumi Swordman and Champion = 1.5 point,
- Siege Elephant, Siege Onager and Bombard Cannon = 1 point
- they lacks a lot of eco upgrades = 0 point,
ā total = 6/8 A Tier
Medical Corps new suggestion
Cavalry regenerate 35hp per minute and takes 33% less bonus damage - affects elephants and light cavalry
New Civ bonus
Military units returns 20% of food cost on death - long term economy bonus
Iāve a solution to castle age problem. The monasteryā for castle age can be replaced with a new building called āTEMPLEā.
Temple has all the building characteristics of a monastery like creating monk, keeping relics and research monk tech. Its special ability is it can HEAL & CONVERT like a monk as well. Temple can heal units at 4 range and convert at 9 with a LOS of 11.
This building can help do a static defense against a knight push. The skirms and arbs can fight around the building while āTempleā can be used to convert heavy cavalry unit. There is a chance of turning the tables on an opponent who is trying to do the strategy Hera pointed out: āSkirm+ knight push will kill Dravidians in castle ageā. Once converted, opponent knight can be set on their skirms. This is like a tanky, immovable monk. Temple will only cost wood which Dravidians do get easily as a civ bonus. Dravidians donāt get redemption. So Temple has an easy counter in siege. But then Dravidians can do their own siege when such a circumstance is faced. In late imperial, the building can help against raids by being placed like a castle in middle of farm economy. I think this building can help balance out the problem a fair bit.
Historically too, this will be an ode to Shaivite, Vaishnawite temples found all over south India and the ones later built in south east asia like combodiaās Angkor Wat.
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