I’m not sure why you are referencing all civilizations when we are talking about specifically dravidians. None of what you say applies to them, because of their unique circumstances.
For them personally, the only strategy that beats the MAA Rush is trash, but as I said, that’s almost certainly because Hera predominantly chooses that, and he wins the majority of his games regardless of civilization. For the average 1900 plus player, the MAA Rush is the best option available. And make no mistake, 1900 plus is nowhere near pro. It is certainly a highly competent player, but there are multiple levels of competence between that and the ability to compete on a professional level.
Likewise, Walling obviously is not the best solution for most civilizations, but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be an effective option for this particular civilization, which only needs to buy enough time to get to its later game Power composition. Yes, they would obviously be able to bust through it with a little bit of Siege, but that means a significant time investment, and with civilizations like this, it often takes only that little bit of time to push through and reach the more powerful state of the game. And that is ignoring the fact that this would be a relatively potent bonus that would make it more viable for any civilization, not just one that is in particular need of that assistance.
You have to think the civilization through, find where their problems arise, and come up with answers that make them stronger specifically in that place, not broad General bonuses that have unintended side effects.
In this case, you have a civilization with a powerful early game, followed by a relatively weak mid game, followed by a decent end game. That is not a design flaw, that is intentional. You don’t need to fix that, you just need to make them better able to survive that moment of weakness, such that they are able to reach that more potent end game composition. Even by temporarily propping up their mid game performance, you will create more opportunities for them to take advantage of their relatively decent end game.
And that is exactly what walls are designed to do. They aren’t castles, which can repel an attacker for a prolonged period of time, they are there to create a temporary barrier, buying you more time to respond. And that is exactly what the dravidians need.
My original thought was two change stone wall price to 2 stone and 3 wood.
At the moment though, I think the best bonus is "buildings and walls get +2/+4/+6 melee armour in feudal/castle/imperial age.
That should be enough to repel cavalry raids much better. Mangonels will still shred though them, but counter mangonels should be fine as long as cavalry can’t raid.
Remove fishing bonus, add the bonus “villagers drop off 10% more food”
Add the bonus “buildings and walls get +2/+4/+6 melee armour in feudal/castle/imperial age.”
Change medical corps to include light cavalry as well
Give them Husbandry
Remove the siege bonus
Can’t say that I’m 100% satisfied with these, especially medical corps. However, this should get them to a decent spot.
They will still have a notably weak castle age, but the walls should be much more resilient against cavalry. Missing hussar and the last armour would still make their cavalry terrible, but at least, they will be able to raid.
If this is too powerful, you could reduce the food bonus to 8%, and remove light cav from wootz steel.
Swapping “woots steel” to castle age, will bring medical corps to imperial age.
How about we introduce a different tech for Dravidians in imperial age?
"Tech: Strike corps - Elephants move 20% faster and receive a charge attack at twice their normal damage to any unit. It takes a minute to recharge.
Elephants in imperial age do not impose cost penalties. So it should be possible to use them as game ending units. Dravidians have less range on Siege weapons due to lacking Siege Engineers. This tech switch can be the compensation they need to finish games.
For anyone laboring under the misconception that the Drav late game power spike is some kind of final solution. Think again. Michi death matches with a post imp start is a relatively popular game mode. I welcome anyone brave enough to try that as a Drav player and see how quickly competent players make you suffer for not having any mobility.
I think 10% food is not well suited to this civ from a thematic or balance perspective. They are broadly designed around better units, which I think is a theme that should remain, and their water focus should also remain a predominant feature of the civ. Balancewise, this bonus would make them extremely potent in the dark age and early feudal age, where they could easily become one of the best frushing civs in the game, and it could feel unfair.
They could rush straight to feudal age with their food bonus, get their bonus wood on age up, and be in your base before you could even build any defenses. Their early game win rate is already quite high, and this bonus could make them overpowering.
I just wanted to point out something that you might have missed earlier on; the costs of palisades have increased since SOTL did that video. At the time, it took about 5 worth of resources per palisade, and 10 per stone wall. But since then, palisades have gone up to 3 wood and 7 seconds of build time, meaning they now cost closer to 7 resources instead of 5.
That means that the bonus I proposed(+100% stone wall build speed) would result in stone walls being approximately the same functional cost as palisades(8 vs 7), but building 2 seconds faster, with 3x the hp and +6 armor, in feudal age. In practice, this would result in a much more potent and versatile bonus than what you propose here.
I thought about giving their light cav Medical Corps, but ultimately I just don’t think it would have a meaningful impact. Unlike Elephants, light cavalry is not meant to be preserved, so the regeneration would only give them a few more HP in any given fight, and make very little difference.
Elephants, by contrast, have the HP and armor to survive long enough for it to kick in and make that difference.
I agree that their light cavalry is currently lackluster, but I can’t see this as the right solution.
I don’t think they’ll get husbandry, any more than teutons will ever get husbandry. It simply doesn’t fit with their theme. If they do get a bonus, it will be to their strength, not their speed, similar to how the Teutons got a bonus to their melee armor, rather than the relatively common request for Husbandry at the time.
Lacking the broken food bonus, the bonuses you’ve suggested don’t particularly warrant the removal of the siege bonus. I do agree that it’s thematically suspect, but I don’t think it should be removed too hastily.
It isn’t just wootz, it’s also their skirmisher bonus, it’s also medical corps, it’s also a deathball of elephant archers with cheap siege, which can be extremely difficult to stop.
Statistically, their winrate improves dramatically at most ELOs in the lategame, indicative of a strong lategame. The only real exception is at the highest ELOs, where I believe they are basically being held back by their very lackluster midgame. It doesn’t matter how good your lategame is if you always end up so weak by the end of castle age you’re unable to properly leverage it.
But that doesn’t mean they’re not strong there, they just need to be able to exhibit that strength. I’m not going to say they’re a lategame powerhouse like some civs, but they’re also a rushing civ, so they really can’t be too good in the lategame. Simply average or slightly above average performance is enough. Ideally, they’ll have a curve, where they’re above average at the start, below average at the midgame, and back above average again at the lategame, but not excessively so.
You have said this multiple times, but this just isn’t true. They have 3 units which are better than FU, which isn’t that special. Those are halbs, skirms, and champions. Their elephant archers lack late game upgrades, stable is garbage, and siege doesn’t have siege engineers. Their Arbs are FU, but not better. There are dozens of civs which have 3 units which are better than FU.
But I have to say, nice catch about pallisade walls there. I’ll keep that in mind for the next time, thank you.
Fair, but also easily fixable. Just make it kick in at feudal age. Or make dark age bonus 5%.
This is where you can tweak the numbers. If you think it doesn’t work thematically, that’s fine. I think that it does, especially considering how developed the food economy of dravidians was. But it is not broken.
This is an on-paper vs in-game difference. Spending stone in feudal has too many complications, especially if you use it for something as trivial as walling.
I’m sorry dude, I’m never going to be convinced on the walling bonus unless I see it and feels it to be good in action.
All that stone you spent on walling could’ve been used on castles. I’ll take like 3 castles over all those stone walls any day. There is a reason why active defence like towers and castles are far better than passive ones like stone walls.
My proposal of increasing wall armour is helpful without any extra effort or resource investment. It’s good on quickwalls, and even for maintaining production buildings.
Yeah, but they are not for fighting, they are for raiding. If it actually made them strong for fighting, I wouldnt propose it in the first place. There are two uses I see, raiding, and tanking opponent’s skimisher fire. Regen is excellent for both of these. Since they will regen, you can even hide a few behind enemy lines and repeatedly raid.
Yeah, but teutons are totally different. In my opinion, they have one of the top 3 eco bonuses in the game. They don’t need to raid, they can out boom you. That’s impossible for dravidians.
I also don’t like this entire “they are slow” argument. No, they are badly designed. Britons are slow, Teutons are slow, Bohemians are slow. Slow civs need range and power. Slow civs can’t be glass cannons. Slow civs also need good eco in general. You aren’t going to with crap eco if you also can’t raid.
Don’t forget their elephant archers also have that +25% fire rate bonus. Combined with Medical Corps, I don’t hesitate to call them FU+. That gives them four FU+ options, and powerful ones, too; Wootz is extremely potent, EAs are extremely potent, their skirms are extremely potent as well, on par with the best.
Add to this their villagers carrying +15 and their fishing ships carrying +15, and you’re up to six FU+ options, and a very strong theme of superior units.
Hey no biggie, I missed it too.
I don’t think there is a good balance point that can be found here. If it’s worth anything at all, it will make them overpowered at some stage. Even if it only kicks in at feudal, you’re still looking at an extremely overpowered lategame, instead. You’re basically talking about giving a bonus dramatically better than the Slavs bonus, and that’s broadly considered to be one of the best in the game.
What they really need is a bonus that applies specifically in the midgame, one that won’t make them OP in the lategame, one that moderates their great weakness, and the only eco bonus that will do that - as far as I can tell - is some sort of stone bonus. All other bonuses can be redirected somehow; for example, less farmers means more wood and gold miners which means more ships which means being better at naval combat which means making them too strong where they’re already top 5. Stone is the only one you only collect if you have to.
If they were to get an eco bonus, it would be getting stone shaft mining unlocked, and stone mining upgrades for free. But even then, I’d be concerned that this bonus would give them too easy of access to defensive buildings early on, which would unintentionally benefit them in water play.
Honestly, I think you’re overfocusing on which particular resource it is. In the feudal age, the only real downside to using stone is that you might need to put down a mining camp on your stone(since you wouldn’t normally be collecting it), or potentially use your market a bit. Other than that, there is no real difference between stone and other resources, since all are plentiful at this stage.
The only time stone becomes much different is in the lategame, with castles, as you mention, but that’s not a concern if your alternative is dying before you ever get to that point.
If you want a use case, there really are plenty to go around; just consider almost any game. Since this bonus would make stone walls cost approximately the same amount as palisades, you can just do exactly what you would normally do with palisades, just with stone walls instead. So take every single case where your enemy might have broken through, and nullify it.
But in practice, having your dravidian player already on stone is actually a great thing, since it means they’re much closer to getting a castle, which will delay the attack further AND get them closer to their ideal lategame deathball comp.
I’m ambivalent on this one. I do see your point, but I just don’t think it would be enough to make much of a difference by the time it comes in. Light Cavalry without the final armor upgrade, husbandry, and bloodlines just aren’t going to be enough of a threat to be worth the added micro. A lot of the time players just spam hussars into the enemy economy, but you couldn’t do that here; you’d need to control them to keep them alive and take advantage of the regen, but that means taking away from your apm elsewhere, which strikes me as more of a harm than a help.
They are different, but just in how their power is expressed. Teutons can produce more units than you; Dravidians can produce BETTER units than you. Teutons end up spending something like 10% less wood over the course of a game, but Dravidians would end up getting 25% more value from their skirmishers and EAs, and even more than that from their wootz halbs. Elephant Archers basically regenerate at a rate equivalent to one villager working, too. I wouldn’t hesitate to call them a slow powerhouse, just expressed in a different way.
That’s why they don’t need a generic eco bonus; they already have one, just one obfuscated under powerful statistical bonuses to their units, not their villagers.
Of course, Teutons have their own bonuses, but nowhere near as potent as, say, Wootz Steel.
Anyways, as I see it they have the following problems:
They have a terrible midgame, due to their flagging early bonuses, while their late bonuses have yet to kick in.
Their UU tends to contrast too much with their sword line, especially due to the cheapness of the sword line and its upgrades.
They are unable to effectively counter monks, especially in the midgame, due to their reliance on elephants and ineffective light cavalry, thus making it even more difficult to reach their lategame deathball.
My personal solutions would start with the Urumi. I would give it +1 charge damage(up to +13), allowing them to kill a monk in two charge attacks, even with Sanctity, allowing them to serve as a reasonable light cav approximation in that role. I would also give them +0.05 movement speed, to make them slightly better at raiding, and to really accentuate their differences from the swordsman line.
I’d follow them up with +100% stone wall build speed, giving them the ability to defend themselves more effectively and get to their lategame composition.
That’s all I’d start with. The stone walls would let them buy time and get them closer to a castle. The castle would hold on for a while longer and let them get some urumis out to counter the enemy monks, which in turn allows them to more effectively add elephants early on.
You know I honestly don’t understand how Dravs were designed. I mean canonically they would have been the civ which was as dependent if not more on eles as compared to Bengalis.
Eles would be the literal towers , rams , cavalry , siege, etcetc. They would not have needed such an array of static defenses like towers because they would have literal mobile ones. Plus geographically as they were separated from the gangetic and indus plains they would not have relied on physical walls for primary defense against invaders.
Because of their reliance on eles they would not have needed much siege in their armies. And gunpowder would take a while to percolate down to their military. So hand cannoneers and bbc access is dubious at best.
The funny thing about that, the first European contact for what is currently known as Indians was with dravidians. This is even a part of Portuguese aoe2 campaign.
From wikipedia:
Peasants of the Gangetic plains used cheap handguns made by local blacksmiths. Travancore, Kashmir, Rajasthan, Punjab and Sindh hosted sites of arms manufacture.[36] In the early 16th century, Zamorin of Calicut, had begun to emulate the Portuguese and began to arm his ships with naval gun pieces, combining local and imported technology.
You need to keep in mind that dravidians are not just tamils and it works out.
Yeah, it’s an overhaul. No, I don’t expect it to be implemented.
Great find, man. The cannon is from a kingdom which was one of the offshoots of the Vijayanagara empire. These telugu kings were called ########## They like the Vijayanagara empire used cannon as defensive weapons mounted on castles. That is why I had advocated the imperial age unique tech as ‘Damboli’.
I think Siege weapons were established as defensive machines which were bought from the chinese empire. Horses were bought from arabs and mongols. South India had access to the technology always.
If you are looking for historical accuracy, Aztecs should be restricted to barracks and archery range. Most civs won’t get castles because it was a completely European concept.
I will agree with your overall assesment though. The Dravidia civ design is flawed and not thematically correct either. The civ is thematically based on “Tamilagam” region which was known for its spirituality, spice trade and architecture. However their tech tree is a Vikings knock off in AOE2 without any long term farm or trade bonus. Their military consisted of innumerable elephants. But Gujjaras get cheaper elephants in AOE2. Their monastry is an obomination. They have a spiritual history pre-dating all civs from AOE2. The region was known for its metal work, clothing, spices and ship manufacturing industries. The civ should have been designed as a blacksmith and economy civ. With the ability to buy most of the military upgrades at will like the chinese. However what we got is a Vikings without beserker and fat long boat which is available only in imperial age.
As per Historical Accuracy Dravidians should be a monk,naval,Elephant and the best infantry civ with a average cavalry. They used both arabian and native indian horses in their army.
As per devs, they wanted to create Dravidians as a allround civ who can do everything, because they were good in everything.
But a civ cannot be good in everything and be balanced.
so they split the points and making Dravidians average in everything. So only dravidians are not overpowered in any category.
Even their elephant archers lose to bengalis in imperial age.
Powerful options with weekness
Elephant archers missing Parathian tactics, bloodlines and husbundry. Bengali elephant archers resist conversion, takes less bonus damage and have bloodlines and husbundry. Which means they can escape easily or survive better. Faster firing is good, but not good vs when group of skrimishers can one shot you( even medical corps wont help)
Siege onagers without siege engineers.
champion and halbs generic till wootz.
Navy is generic till thirisadai.
Only faster firing Skrimisher is there to help dravidians till castle age unit wise.
The things Dravidians need:
Redemption for monks
A good Raiding unit starting in castle age. A replacement to knight or better light cavalry( like bloodlines, husbundry)
Medical corps change-> Mounted units regenerate 30hp/min and provide 30% more hp.
Wootz steel existed for more than 2000 years so medical corps can be imp tech and wootz can be a castle tech.
But wootz sounds cooler. so they might not shift.
Imp-> But devs need to change Medical corps to some tamil/kannada/telugu/malayalam word.
These changes will not be overpowered in naval or feudal.
Redemption will help in castle, medical corps will help in late castle and imperial.
I know that gunpowder was introduced to the subcontinent at the earliest in the late 1400s. It then would have taken at the minimum a few decades at least for that knowledge and experience to percolate to the Drav kingdoms.
AOE2 timeline is meant to end at the latest in 1500. So the timeline is not in supporting with Dravs having access to gunpowder units. Were the Drav kingdoms aware of gunpowder and it’s military applications. They must have been since they traded so excessively. But gunpowder weapons were notorious for being unreliable and temperamental initially at least. So I assume they never saw the benefit of using them at least initially.
Edit: Also fun fact Romans and a whole host of other kingdoms were aware of Eles and their military applications and would import them but that usually never amounted to anything. My point being just because you have a limited access to something doesn’t mean you could field a battalion of them.