As everybody knows, Dutch has to spend 3 shipments in order to reach the maximum limit. These cards must be sent in order to keep up the economy with other 99 villagers civs from late fortress. It is so weird while other civs can reach that without a single shipment.
Also, I don’t know why the coffee trade tech applies a speed penalty to ALL Dutch units, it is a basic right for a civ to have a good late game eco, the penalty makes Dutch hussars are difficult to raid, their skirms are difficult to retreat and ruyters are difficult for anti-raiding.
My suggestions for this issue would be:
- Combine the cards of Bank of Amsterdam and Bank of Rotterdam to one card and move it to age3.
- Remove the speed penalty of coffee trade.
I believe these changes will be more reasonable for Dutch to achieve a basic late economy.
Dutch are one the most powerful civs in late game, they do not need any buff.
Every European civ has a specific church tech that boost their units in one way and depress in another. It is up to you if you pick this tech or not. There is no rule you need all the banks to be successful…
And yes, Dutch have only 50 civs (+ 99 fishing boats) but on the other hand with banks you save like 30+ vills on plantations…
I’ve always thought that the banks of amsterdam and rotterdam shipments to be really strange. They’re age-1 shipments that you would never ship in age 1 or age 2. When compared to an Age-III shipment, they’re abysmally bad. The shipments unlock build limit space of 1, just to enable you to spend another 700 res on a bank worth 4.5 vills. This is essentially 1700 resources for 4.5 vills, which just seems terrible. The only time a dutch player should ship these cards (outside of treaty) is after they’ve failed to secure a win before hitting max eco, and they have to begin to prepare for a late game.
It’s pretty common knowledge that dutch falls behind during this period, and I believe these two shipments are the reason why. In my opinion, these cards would make a lot more sense if they were moved to age 4, and they each also provided a bank wagon. They’d still be expensive shipments, costing 1600 resources for a single bank, but it would still be a buff for the dutch in the period of the game where they are the weakest. And it wouldn’t affect treaty balance whatsoever.
as for coffee trade, a trade-off should exist, but the existing one does seem quite harsh. Speed penalty could be reduced to 7%, or it could cost 1k food + 1k wood (gold might be too easy for casual boomers) instead of a speed penalty.
They can be 55, if you use the politician O Viceroy, to go up to age 4, which delivers 5 vils. It may seem little but this is 10% more than vils.
Most civilizations have their growth limited by the speed of villagers’ creation. What Holland does is to circumvent this limitation by creating banks that are like vils ahead of time, this allows to have a very strong economy at the beginning of the game, but that in the late game is punished by the need to send bank and church cards.
I agree that the punishment of the church is difficult, that having to send 3 cards to be entitled to “99 villagers” is terrible, but the victory rates of the Dutch civilization, in the RE and EP said it was balanced.
If they want to change Holland’s weaknesses, they will need a nerf somewhere else.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not against the changes you say, I like changes because they keep the game alive and pros players are forced to leave the comfort zone looking for the most efficient strategies.
You explained very well about the 2 age1 bank cards. They are usually used in late age3 which is totally a loss for an age3 shipment. But at the same time these cards must be sent to keep up the economy. The set up condition from 5 banks to 9 banks is too harsh.
However I am afraid that moving them to age4 is not a good idea because every civ should be able to achieve a 99 vils econ in age3, I believe that is the reason why the Tanzimat (Otto church tech) was moved to age3 in DE. Don’t forget there are already 3 cards require to send in age4 to keep their late game econ (Tulip, 2 factories). If the idea of combining them is too aggressive, a cost can be applied for it.
About the church card, tbh I think they are all failure in design but Dutch is forced to use it.If most of the players think that it is the design of the church card, at least reduce the penalty like what you said.
Industrial play is become a lot more popular in DE. the ability to ship heavy cannons and factories is well-worth the resources, and I think that Dutch’s age 3 shipment slots are already crowded. But this is just my opinion.
I actually agree with that!
These changes are quite good as it won’t affect dutch mid-game as it is already quite strong but it will boost their late game a bit which is nice.
Each bank is worth around 4 vills so by getting all 9 banks If you add up dutch will have the equivalent of 86 vills and it comes with a speed penalty for all military.
Devs gotta be careful though and consider that dutch has 50 extra pop space for military and their ruyters are incredibly cheap, so there is that, but these are very reasonable changes though and it would probably do more good than harm!
Send advanced arsenal and purchase the tech “military drummers” to get the unit speed back.
Jborgzz: Taunt 2
Each civ has strengths and weaknesses. No civ has a right to a “good late game eco.”
Remove Tulip Speculation
Make Bank of Rotterdam and Amsterdam give 10% bankbuff each.
Speed penalty is good balance imo since otherwise dutch would go wild with mercs and AA and free money.
That does make sense to be fair.
Although mercs do get a bit outdated on imperial age though
i like the idea to give these cards some extra effect but do dutch even need a buff anywhere else then late game eco? i mean skirms in age 2 is all they need to shine in teamgames.
make the imperial age 50% gold gather upgrade give 50% gather rates to banks again, like in vanilla aoe 3 or maybe just 25%. i nerver understood why the intertionally further nerfed dutch imp eco when they changed it to give 2 bank tbuild limit instead.
a bit less so now if you go the merc contractor hp and attack bonus age5 politician. Early age 5 mercs are pretty strong before others get their imperial upgrades. If you already have a merc mass going into age 5 they get a quick upgrade.
Oh I see!!
That sounds interesting!
how about a new age up politican that gives bank build limits in age 4 or maybe age5
Seems like our discussion on this thread somehow made it into the recent patch. Those bank cards have been buffed in a quite nice way!
Yes! Im really pumped about it.