East Asia Civ Idea- Xianbei

WateryCanoe400 · August 11, 2021, 1:11am

Xianbei

Xianbei is like the Goths of East Asia and can barely cause any controversy. Xianbei immerged into Han Chinese, Mongols, Turks and Khitans. Like Goths they appeared at Han border, fought against or along with Han empire, joined the warlords for unifying China during chaos and founded several powerful dynasties in Northern China. The Tang dynasty absorbed lots of norms of Xianbei and the founder of Tang is half Xianbei too. Xianbei greatly affected how later nomad tribes established their regime and the word Khan was first used by Xianbei highest leader. The Tanguts lead by a descendent of Xianbei noble founded the Western Xia so possibly Xia can be Xianbei in the game and Tangut language can be used(Xianbei language cannot be found).

Dynasties built by the Xianbei generally love Buddhism. The first large scale fervor of Buddhism in China happened during Northern Wei. Temples bloomed over the country to host masters traveling from India and expensive royal expedition were sent to India for monks to bring back Buddhist scriptures（Song Yun). Their wonder can be the famous Yungang Grottoes.

Mulan is a Xianbei.

Civ bonus

Foragers and hunters don’t need mill (like Khmer farmers);

Hand cart and Wheelbarrow can be researched instantly;

When knight line units die spawns militia line units(No Paladin);

Can upgrade monk to imperial monk(+20 hp +2 range);

Team bonus

First monastery free; Monastery available in feudal.

Unique units

Liuzhen Cavalry: Historically noble knights guarding the six frontier towns. These elites also held great political power.

Generate hp like Berserks. High pierce armor and has bonus attack against buildings.

Unique techs

Sinicization: Liuzhen Cavalry generate hp faster and university techs cost 50% less;

Luoyang: Get 100 gold for each monastery existed and relic generate 100% more gold.

(Luoyang was the center of Buddhism in East Asia during Xianbei rule, full of luxurious temples.)

Tech tree focus on cavalry and monastery techs, adjust accordingly for balance.

Hopefully someone in aoe2 team can see this. Personally I think Xianbei fits better in the game than Khitans or Jurchens. Xianbei set an example for later East Asia nomadic people regime, Khitans and Jurchens basically went similar route as Xianbei.

Mahazona · August 11, 2021, 1:29am

This is renamed tibet?

KarstHillFort77 · August 11, 2021, 1:35am

A great idea, though the only thing that would make them a bit off would be their time period. The earliest record of the Xianbei goes back to the Warring States period around 4th century BC, and they had been completely assimilated into the Sinitic population sometime around the late 6th or early 7th centuries AD. In that sense they were similar to the Huns, only active at the beginning of aoe2 timeline, then disappeared without leaving too much trace.

Tanguts weren’t Xianbei, their language was Tibeto-Burman, while the Xianbei language was either Proto-Mongolic or Para-Mongolic. If they ever decide to add Xianbei or Khitan into the game then Mongolian would be the best proxy language to use, just like what they did with the Huns.

TBH I don’t think they’re the best choice to add due to their early time period, Jurchens would be much more suitable for aoe2 than the Xianbei.

WateryCanoe400 · August 11, 2021, 2:02am

Tanguts people were Tibeto-Burman but their founding leader had surname from Xianbei, possibly a descendent from Xianbei Tuoba clan. Tuyuhun is a Xianbei nation, Tangut people learned a lot from Tuyuhun. Of cause that doesn’t make Tanguts Xianbei but it’s just a suggestion that they can be Xianbei in the game.
I consider Jurchens’ golden age as the Qing dynasty. Jurchens were quite awkward around 12 century, the Mongols were greater nomadic power and the Khitans and Chinese were more advanced empires(considering technology and economy). Jurchens are hard to be classified in the game. One or two such kind of civ is enough to summerize civs like Xianbei, Khitan, Jurchens or Tanguts. Like Vikings and Tuetons in the game sumerize all germanic tribes or nations after Goth age. Khitan can have bonus on trading because of Kara Khitai and the Silk Road. But what difference can Jurchens have in the game?

Mahazona · August 11, 2021, 2:06am

Kara Khitai are Khitan?

KarstHillFort77 · August 11, 2021, 2:17am

Jurchens were actually quite different from Xianbei, Khitans, Mongols, or Tartars, they weren’t nomadic to begin with, but were hunters and fishermen that lived in the forest and they also practiced some agriculture. They relied on heavy infantry and heavy shock cavalry instead of light cavalry and horse archers, unlike the steppe peoples.

The Jurchens are definitely more worthy than the Xianbei to be added into the game. First of all they coincide better with the aoe2 timeline, secondly their rise to power was absolutely mesmerizing, it only took them a decade or so to topple two of the wealthiest empires in the world at that time, the Khitan Liao empire and the Northern Song empire. The Khitans and the Song were so afraid of the Jurchens that they claimed “女真不满萬，满萬不可敌”, which literally means any group of 10,000 or more Jurchens would be invincible. The devs could definitely make a campaign out of this once they’ve added the Jurchen civ.

And also adding Khitans and Xianbei into the game means that we would potentially have 4 civs speaking the same language (in addition to Mongols and Huns), which is rather boring to play with.

KarstHillFort77 · August 11, 2021, 2:27am

The Kara-Khitai empire was founded by Yelu Dashi, who was a high-ranking Khitan officer in exile, fleeing west from his devastated homeland conquered by the Jurchens.

Yelu Dashi was also a mesmerizing personage that the devs could potentially make a campaign about, his feat was no less impressive than Genghis Khan. Shortly before his exile he defeated 100,000 Song troops with just 7,000 Khitan troops on the outskirts of modern-day Beijing (at that time called Xijin). And in 1142 he defeated 100,000 Seljuk Turks at the Battle of Qatwan with only 20,000 troops.

UpmostRook9474 · August 11, 2021, 3:01am

I totally agree that Xianbei is a great civ. Even it had been gone, its culture still influenced so many nations in Inner Asia for centuries.

However, the era of the Chinese civ in the game is defined that starting since Sui Dynasty. That means Xianbei may not be a perfect choice. In the fact, the battles and wars against the steppe civs in the era of Tang and Song Dynasty may be more charming to be made a game.

As Xianbei’s descendants, Khitans is a pretty good choice. Not only can represent Xianbei, but also has its own good story, including Yelu clan, Liao Empire and Kara-Khitai.

Now we have Chinese and Mongols. If Khitans and Jerchens were added, the history of 10th - 13th Century east Asia could basically be reproduced.

WateryCanoe400 · August 11, 2021, 3:05am

Yes but Khitans are pretty similar too right. Khitans also started as hunter fisherman and had some agriculture. At least considering game-play I don’t know how to make Khitans and Jurchens significantly different. Also Khitans have much more interesting story line like the above mentioned. The Xianbei I want to be in the game is a civ rely on heavy cav. It’s more of a Northern Chinese civ rather than a Mongonic civ. Cause we already have enough cav archer civs. An East Asian heavy cav civ would be a first time.

WateryCanoe400 · August 11, 2021, 3:24am

If Goths and Spanish and Portuguese can be 3 civs, Xianbei, Sui Chinese and Khitan be 3 civs isn’t a bigger problem. Xianbei has this unique Buddhism fervor style which I hope to add into the game. Monks from India reach Northern Wei and establish famous temples like the Shaolin temple, first recorded travel from China to India and Xianbei support Buddhism to spread to Korea and Japan can be interesting story. Also the struggle of to sinicize or not and the struggle of Mulan. If Xianbei is added, Chinese can finally have a long campaign of how the Sui and Tang rise from Xianbei influence.

UpmostRook9474 · August 11, 2021, 3:41am

Khitans army was majority formed by many steppe bow riders, who were the raiders, light-armed, weaker and cheaper. Meanwhile, Khitans elite troop was cavalry who used crossbows and heavy armor. So, it could be a CA civ with 2 UU, weak trash CA in the range and heavy crossbow cavalry in the castle.

Jerchens is known for their heavy melee cavalry called “Tiefutu”, so it may be the only east Asian civ that has paladins and UT “Tiefutu” that giving the cavalry unit a benefit.
Meanwhile, Jerchens is also known for the pirate activities, so maybe let fish boats have weakly attack ability as a bonus.

They are European and we are Asian. This is a game made by a west company. 11
The fact is, there is a quota for new civs. The dev have to make a choice.

WateryCanoe400 · August 11, 2021, 5:37am

That sounds really good. Hope the aoe2 team would seriously consider that.

Mahazona · August 11, 2021, 6:20am

That would be overkill if 4 civis share the same language.

WanMonsterZ · August 11, 2021, 4:09pm

鲜卑的时代有点太早了，在AOE2时间线中，中国北方是突厥（并非塞尔柱和奥斯曼），契丹和女真，最后是蒙古。
The era of Xianbei is a bit too early. In the AOE2 timeline, northern China is Turkic (not Seljuk and Ottoman), Khitan and Jurchen, and finally Mongolia.

UpmostRook9474 · August 11, 2021, 4:18pm

Precisely, it is called Gokturks.
I support Gokturks, Khitans, Jurchens and Tibetans as new east Asian civs in the future.

WateryCanoe400 · August 11, 2021, 11:30pm

我想要的鲜卑主要是北朝，即从北魏到北周，骑兵技术发展快，重军事和佛教的文明。突厥和契丹可以作为草原和渔猎特色文明。

The Xianbei I want is more of a Northern China civ during 200s to 500s, from Northern Wei to Northern Zhou, a civ inovates cavalry technology and promote Buddhism. Gurturks and Khitan can be steppe civs and fisherman hunter civ.

鲜卑和哥特时间上是差不多的。
Xianbei is about the time of the Goths.

WateryCanoe400 · August 11, 2021, 11:48pm

I want the Chinese in aoe2 be more specific, like Italiens. Sicilians Goths and Italiens focus on different things. If there is only one civ for regimes on ancient China land it would be too narrow. Ideally I hope there is a civ for Northern China, a civ for Song dynasty, a civ for coastal China(maybe the Min people?) and a civ for western China.