Egyptian Army

Age of Mythology: Retold Discussion
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Hi everyone! I’ve been playing as the Egyptians recently, but I’m noticing some clear disadvantages with their counter-units—let me explain.

●Barrack

By design, the Barracks units are weak—which is fine by me—but they simply don’t compare to the counter-units of other pantheons; they are *too* weak. By “weak,” we mean they have fewer hit points than those from other pantheons; naturally, they cost less, but their damage output is far too low.

- Spearman: The multiplier against cavalry is too low (2x). To use it efficiently, I have to switch to Horus, but that requires reaching the Mythic Age; otherwise, it’s useless. An Aztec Spearman performs better (same cost and HP and does not require upgrades to make it reliable).

- Slinger: This unit is a poor counter and only becomes useful with upgrades; otherwise, it’s terrible.

- Axeman: This unit is okay.

●Migdol Stronghold Units

- Elephants and War Chariots are excellent.

- Camel Rider: This unit is supposed to replace the Spearman and Slinger. It does a great job, but it needs a few more multipliers to effectively counter other units; right now, it’s used more like a standard cavalry unit than a counter-unit. It’s already a great unit, but a small buff could help. It has a low damage multiplier against archers (intended for utilize the slinger), yet the slinger is inferior. Every other cavalry unit in the game consistently deals more DPS against archers.

As it stands, the Egyptians seem to have weaker counters against Archers and Cavalry compared to other civilizations. The units meant for this role have low multipliers, requiring more of them—and thus higher costs—to keep pace with other civilizations. Essentially, they lack “hard” counters.

I’m forced to choose Horus to make the Spearman a viable counter-unit, whereas counter-units from other civilizations are excellent without needing minor god upgrades (e.g., Hirdmen, Yari, Ge, etc.).

The Slinger doesn’t do much on its own; its only advantage is range ( Camel Riders are better always ).

If I play as a civilization, I want reliable counter-units; I don’t want to lose every fight just because my units are consistently inferior to those of other civilizations, even with upgrades. If you test a 1v1 between a basic Spearman and a basic Hippeus, the Hippeus wins

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The Egyptian spearman needs something else that sets him apart from the spearmen of other civilizations without making him too overpowered, so imo he should be definitely stronger in some areas.

In the original game, the Egyptian spearman was used more as a generalist unit compared to Retold, he was an excellent all-around unit especially with the right upgrades and godpaths.

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True, but in its current state, it’s terrible both as a general-purpose unit and as a counter-unit. Units in the game should be reliable to use without needing upgrades just to make them viable. It ought to be replaced by the Camel Rider, but even the Camel Rider doesn’t have a high counter-attack value.

My issue is that for other civilizations, every counter-unit is effective on its own without needing upgrades—unlike Egypt’s. The Spearman, Slinger, and Camel Rider should have higher multipliers.

If you want a more general-purpose unit, you increase the damage; if you want a unit focused on countering, you raise the multiplier.

There are two units I can compare the Spearman to:

Yari Spearman = 6 DPS, 2.5x multiplier, more HP, more cost.

Aztec Spearman = 6 DPS, 3x multiplier, same HP as the Egyptian Spearman.

The other counter-units all have lower DPS but higher multipliers, making them useful specifically for that role.

6 DPS and 2x multiplier makes the Spearman weak both as a counter-unit and as a general-purpose unit.

What should I use it for? In a 1v1 fight, the Egyptian Spearman loses to cavalry units other than Norse Light Cavalry. If I use it as a general-purpose unit, it has low overall DPS for that role

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Slingers and spearmen suck in their current state for sure.

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If you want to turn the Spearman into a hybrid unit, you could opt to raise its DPS from 6 to 7 without lowering the multiplier. That way, you make it a bit unique. However, it still wouldn’t function as a heavy counter-unit but it would become a hybrid/generalist unit than it is now.

If I simply raise the multiplier from 2 to 3, without increasing the damage , it becomes identical to the Aztec version. However, it becomes a efficient heavy counter.

Alternatively, you could buff the Camel Rider by increasing the multipliers—making them like the Prodromos—but I don’t like that idea. The Camel Rider is fine as it is; I would only raise the multiplier against archers (1.25x is a bit low) i think 1.75 is appropriate.

The same goes for the Slinger: right now, it’s only good with upgrades—otherwise, it’s a terrible counter-unit, whereas the Turma, Wuzu, and Peltast are consistently better. In this case, i suggest to increase the damage multiplier against ranged units. It becomes an excellent archer—like a *Toxotes*—only when using Sekhmet, and it works well in that setup (though chariot archers are still better overall, it’s a fun option).

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Was this really the case? This going from memory and looking at recent de and voobly games this def doesnt seem to be the case. Theres a lot more barracks play now than it ever has been on the previous aom. Not saying buffs arent needed, but no need to exagerate to make a point.

Need to keep in mind that with aztecs theres now a melee unit that has no army tag in warrior priest. If you turn spearmen into a more Hard counter focus while lower Ing its dps then the eggy classical army will not have a unit that can deal cost efficiently with warrior priest.

This is one of the reasons a generalist approach kinda “needs” to exist to have an option in this scenarios

My opinion on this seeing how i care more about the balance than the flavor of it, i would make it more into generalist type of unit. Spearmen already are cost effective vs all early and mid game cavalry units.

I do agree camels were kind a powercrept. They dont beat the other elite cavalry in jaguar riders (when micro) and Tiger cav and this units can trade decent ish against non horus spearmen, or at the very least Last more while the dedícated anti infantry deals with it.

Them dealing with archers doesnt seem to be an issue imo outside of maybe eagle warriors? But i would say thats the same dynamic RC have in pathing and how good box formation is.

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That’s great; in that case, it would make sense to revert the Lancer’s DPS value to 7, as it was before several patches. I do have a reservation regarding the Camel Rider, though: I was fighting against Yumi archers (on foot) today, and the damage wasn’t what I would expect from a cavalry unit.

That’s exactly the point: if I don’t use Horus—who, by the way, is only available in Mythic age and not for Isis—what am I supposed to do?

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There was a time where spearmen was very strong, thou irrc they stacked buffs on it. Dunno of thats the period you were refering to. Would be interesting to see small changes and how it impacts.

Do you feel camels do worse into archers than lets say hippeus, raiding cavalry, naginata riders, contarious and such?

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Basically, I think a cavalry unit ought to take down archers easy.

The Camel Rider has a base DPS of 8—lower than other cavalry units—and also a very low multiplier, so it deals less damage to ranged units compared to a Hippeus or Naginata.

It deals the exact same DPS as an RC (8) but has a lower multiplier (1.25x vs. 1.75x). Consequently, the RC always deals more damage to ranged troops.

In my view, it would make sense for it to have the same multiplier as the RC; that would make it more effective.

For the Cavalry, I’d also raise the multiplier a bit there—maybe from 2x to 2,25x/2.5x; it wouldn’t turn them into a Prodromos, but it would help.

With 2.5, it would have the same effectiveness as a Katapeltes, Ge, or Hirdman.

With a value of 2.25, it gains the same offensive power as an Aztec Spearman,Yari.

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Yes, because in this case, the difference of a single point—moving from 6 to 7—makes the unit more of a generalist.

● A Hoplite has 8 DPS

● A Dao deals 7.5 DPS

● A Berserker has 9.28 DPS

● A Murmillo has 8.75 DPS

At 6 DPS, you are looking at an infantry counter-unit like Aztec Spearman, Yari. NOT GENERALIST

7 would make sense because, while the unit wouldn’t be as strong as a Hoplite, it would offer a good balance of damage and cost-efficiency.

If you keep its current 2x multiplier, it would make for an excellent hybrid unit. It wouldn’t excel at countering, but it would at least serve as an answer to units that lack specific tags.

We saw this happen with Warriors Priests, which dealt too much base DPS and ended up being used as generalist units.

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what elo are u? just to know who is talking, whats ur nickname? i hate that the forum doesnt allow to know the user elo reliably

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Forgive me, but is it important to know the Elo rating, or to be able to do some basic math?

The game is a matter of math and mechanics. If you crunch the numbers and make comparisons, you don’t need a high Elo to determine that a unit is terrible.

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ELO is very relevant for the latter bit. Understanding the mechanics not only theoretically, but practically. Knowing how they play out is crucial for these sort of discussions.

Would you just take the word of someone of 500 ELO about game balance? (much love to lower level players!) They might have a point, they might even have a point for their skill level, but they might likely also be very very wrong when it comes to overall balancing across the board.

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I agree that a professional player’s opinion carries more weight than mine, which is based on the math. However, a pro will still use a weak unit effectively simply because they are skilled; yet, knowing the underlying math, they would still tell you the unit is terrible, even if it performs well thanks to its abilities.

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its like the universe, u can know the math of known things, but not the math of unknown things. All stats of the units count, speed, box size, etc. I dont see egyptian as weak. In every camp of the science etc the more experienced or better ranked people teach other people.

Cita Hi everyone! I’ve been playing as the Egyptians recently, but I’m noticing some clear disadvantages with their counter-units—let me explain

experienced people dont listen ideas of non experienced people, i dont need to know your elo, if you are new with egyptians is enough information

Cita If I play as a civilization, I want reliable counter-units; I don’t want to lose every fight just because my units are consistently inferior to those of other civilizations, even with upgrades. If you test a 1v1 between a basic Spearman and a basic Hippeus, the Hippeus wins

pikemans are better for raiding villagers or patrolling zones for defending from raids, or being in a zone in DEFENSE POSITION MODE so they dont pursue the cavalry to the death just some meters and then come back to the previous zone
you can make suggestions or complain certainly but you also must do the best with what you have and to know what the units excel at.

try to watch how theralph plays or read his guides.

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Let’s start with the premise that I don’t need advice or anything like that; I’ve been playing *Age of Mythology* and other RTS games for more or less 20 years, so I’m not here to listen to that kind of talk.

First of all, the point here is how weak a unit is in terms of raw numbers, not how skilled a player is at using it. I’m focusing on the numbers—I laid out the data specifically to facilitate a numerical comparison, and I want to stress that word: *numerical*. We are discussing stats here, so I want opinions on these units’ statistics; how they are actually used doesn’t interest me. Let me ask you again: do you think this unit statistically needs a buff? If so, by how much? I’m not interested in whether one player is skilled and another is mediocre; I’m looking for a discussion based on the numbers. And again, if Huskuppe, The Rapl, or anyone else is good with the Lancer—great job! Even they know that, statistically speaking, the unit is inferior to those of other civilizations. Want an example? Even Boit says so.

I’m here to discuss this simply because I love the game and would like to improve it with some data-driven feedback. It’s up to the developers what happens next. I’m not here to whine about online losses; I don’t care about that.

Instead of just sitting here watching who or what, give me your opinion in numerical terms. Do you think these units need buffs or nerfs? I’d appreciate that more.

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Doesnt this apply to you as well? Elo gaiting as a low Elo player yourself seems odd imo. Thou i guess everyone puts the bar on where does elo become high enough.

Would rather arguments be taken for what they are and discuss around it, showing experience when there is on why something would work or not.

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Do keep in mind theres more to Just raw stats. The eco, how fast they train, the unit price, the Building cost and other things also determine how viable a unit is or isnt.

From the suggestions, going from 1.25 to 2.25 is not a bit. Its a 100% boost, it is quite significant. You are comparing matching the same damage as katapeltes when you would also have better performance vs all the other unit types. Small increments usually work better than big jumps until something lands imo

Also the raw dps value isnt what determines if a unit is a generalist or not. You can have a unit that deals 6 dps and has no bonus, and still be worse than all other units, it does equal ish into all and thus it still is a generalist, a bad one, but one nonetheless.

From the warrior priest example you are missing the detail of being tagless (besides hero) . Take a look at hersir, they do decent damage vs none myth units but have a clear counter. So raw damage output is not the only thing you should be looking at.

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Yes, all the factors you mentioned were taken into account prior to this analysis. I also noticed that the Spearman trains rather slowly compared to its counterparts, though the barracks themselves cost less.

Regarding the camel multiplier: it’s 2x to 2.25x, not 1 to 2.25—so yes, I did consider that excessive.

● At 2.5x, it would deal the same damage as a Katapeltes.

Katapeltes Base= 6 hack x 4.00 = 24/1.2 ( attack speed)= 20

Camel with 2,5 = 8 x 2.50 = 20

● At 2.25x, it would be like an Aztec Spearman.

Aztec Spearman = 6 x 3,00 = 18.00

Camel with 2,25 = 8 × 2,25 = 18

As for the Priest, I mean that its base DPS was too high before; it has since been nerfed. Of course, the fact that it lacks the specific tag works in its favor.

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I dont think a unit that is as versatile should match the damage of a Hard counter unit that only focuses on 1 thing, ofc when accounting for it being more pop costing more.

Given how their role is more in working as a frontline doing more dps instead of multiplier would work better imo in case damage is lacking.

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