You declare this as if all shall agree with this assessment, but I am still not able understand why reducing just 10%HP on El dorado eagles (which is still A HUGE 150% the normal) eagles would “Kill off Mayans”.
What is being proposed is a very minor revision on a UT (i repeat, they will still get 90HP 8PA 1.43 movement EEW which is still insane) that was always known to be extremely potent, if not the most potent since the Conquerors.
Also, I cannot understand the logic of “This civ dont get access to X,Y, Z so they deserve to have a unit that has 166% the normal HP, moves as fast as Cavalry, counters Archers, Monks, All Trash, Siege, Cav arch, and even cavalry/infantry(when in mass), and takes next to no damage wherever they run.
These units are Conversion resistant Huskarls that move as fast as Hussar while having the HP of a Knight at the same time, AND having been given only one weakness that cannot even hope to hit them. They are by themselves really overpowered units in terms of hard statistics.
Well, the difference is that Eagles start at 60 HP while Palas start at 160 HP.
Thrown like that I don’t see why it should be a problem.
Let’s assume it’s true, then how would an HP nerf help? Since they would still take 0 damage you don’t care about their HP.
Against another meso they could. Or use them agains mass trash like everyone does. And it’s not like Aztecs have jags and Incas have slingers to kill eagles anyway. In fact, in Mayan mirror people avoid making eagles because mass plumes will just shred a plume+eagles army.
Let’s forget the good UU, the good eco bonus and the fact they start 1 villager ahead. All these contribute as much to make the civ good (but not as OP as they sound in this thread 11)
Oh god I’m sorry but you’re basically tired of seeing a unit do its job. They are a cav substitute so of course they are good at killing archers, siege and monks, since these roles are what a unit that must compensate for the lack of both LC and knights should be able to do. Regarding non champion infnatry, almost all infantry UU get bonus vs eagles as well. The only exception are Kamayuks and Condos (and it’s not like they have HC or slingers to counter eagles). Spears get a paltry +1 bonus damage but since they aren’t designed as an anti eagle unit that’s fine. Light cav lose vs knights and thus lose to eagles too. And I don’t get why you would complain about eagles beating non FU cavalier, it’s not like you were going to make say, Korean cavaliers in the first place…
Aztecs have champs and jag so they weren’t going to use eagles anyway.
Said infantry has roughly double the DPS, as well as being 60% less gold intensive.
If this was true, then how come cav isn’t op vs non camel civs?
Too bad Incas and Aztecs both have good skirms, as well as siege rams (even siege onager for Aztecs)
Technically you might be right and Mayan be just fine after this. However, many agreed that Mayan didn’t feel as strong on DE. Maybe it’s just psychological, maybe it’s pathing, maybe it’s the new matchups, but still, the civ doesn’t need some nerfs based of only insisting on the strenghts of one of its best units. I’m sorry, but you made it look as if Mayan eagles were so hard to counter and so oppressive that they are OP, give easy wins and require full walling to keep in check even tho Mayan tournament performance has been consistently average. And it’s not because there are stronger civs or anything, they have been beaten by a wide arrays of civs including pre-buff Viet and pre buff Khmer which were notoriously bad at 1v1.
Two can play this game: They’re Imp melee units with no melee armor, have the base attack of a Castle Age longswordsman, and cost 2.5x the gold of a champion, but die miserably to champions. #EaglesUselessConfirmed.
As @SirFwosti implied, “look at this huge percentage increase!” means little for a unit with low base Hp. It’s decent in absolute terms, but is dwarfed by, say, the War Elephant gaining 150 hp with the Elite upgrade, and it’s not an inherently good argument that the ED tech is OP.
Mayans are in a good place right now. Sometimes I do think Eagles may be slightly too strong, and I might have been on board with a change like this if Mayans hadn’t already received nerfs via increased Plumed Archer cost and decreased resource bonus since AoC, but in their current state, I don’t think so. They’re still very strong, but better to buff the weaker civs than nerf any civ that might just happen to be good.
Also, you might want to edit your previous posts rather than double post - it shatters the mystique that might otherwise accompany your persona.
tl;dr I don’t think it’s a terrible idea necessarily, but nor do I think it’s a great one, or see any particularly strong reason to implement it.
Its core element of balancing not just in AoE but even in games like LoL,WoT,WoW… etc some heroes/civilizations or whatever you are balancing are flexible thus ok ish in every situation while not having any strong bonus that would specialize them. Other civs get good bonus in one way but taking from them other options as way of paying for bonus and also makes them a lot more predictable.
Just bear in mind this, if you nerf El Dorado, Mayans will become an insta-loss MU against Goths and Malians, and will be in serious trouble against any civ with good Siege Onagers or Heavy Scorpions.
Ya, reducing just 10% HP on post-imperial EEW (which is not commonly reached in a 1v1) will totally turn the Mayans into crap, and they will become as bad as Magyars/Portuguese in winrate.
Even if the above was the truth(which i cant beleive people are arguing for), why are you so allergic to the Mayans being nerfed below S tier for once in 22 years?
Mayans are a staple of the game, and have already been repeatedly nerfed over the HD years. There is nothing else we can take from them, before they just break.
You like big percentages, do you? You know how Arbalesters are a good Imperial Age archer unit? Well what if I told you that there was a civ that had an archer with not 100%, not 200%, not 500%, but 775% MORE Hit Points than an arbalester? And +1 Attack, more armor, and a bonus vs buildings? THAT"S RIGHT, THE INDIANS ARE OP!!! NERF THE UNSTOPPABLE ELEPHANT ARCHER!!!
Anyway, the point about this percentage increase has already been addressed by several people in several ways, and you haven’t responded in such a way as to convince anybody but yourself. It’s clear that you’re using the “66%” because it sounds bigger than 40, and, as we all know, according to the Third Law of Noobo-dynamics, any big-sounding number (or better yet, big-sounding percentage) in AoE2 means that something must be OP.
Again, we all agree that Mayans are very strong for a variety of reasons, and this is certainly one of them. And while it’s conceivable that Mayans could receive a small nerf somewhere down the line, it’s far from obvious that they desperately need one. Like I said, I don’t know that it’s a terrible idea, but it seems clear that approaching things in the way that you are isn’t going to win this idea any supporters.
Actually I like the Mayans EEW having 100 HP. It’s actually a good thing to see that their EEW has that HP considering that EEW with 100 HP is supposed to be like a replacement for the champion since they don’t have access to that.
Most obvious example: how do you deal with a Goth player that managed to build a castle? All other civs will have some kind of option: they could build an army of cav + archer and try and micro that so that archers kill pikes and cav kill huskarls. Aztecs have jag, Incas have slingers. And late-game chances are your civ is gonna have either FU Champ with supplies, hand cannoneer or some kind of powerful military option that will allow you to handle them just fine. Now if you’re Mayan, all you’ve got are: 2 infantry units that die to huskarl and 1 archer. I guess you could mass your siege engineer lacking heavy scorpions and pray to DauT real hard that they forget they have BBC. Of course Goths aren’t played that much, but it still means that to deal with trash Mayan will have to pay 150% more gold (their bonus only gives them 15% more ressources) And of course like other meso civs they only have 2 trash options so they will have less options to chose from their own trash.
Regarding the whole “never see champ” deal, first I’m sure there are cases where Incas indeed go for champs, and second it’s not because of eagle specifically but champs being more on the niche side of things. For instance people always go for light cav no matter how bad it is while going much less for champ, the reason being your raiding uni should be as fast as possible. Same for eagles.
I would personally be very careful with melee units balance changes until the devs have sorted out the problems with the pathfinding. Right now we are not seeing those units at their full potential. Melee feels in general very underwhelming in DE, at least when large numbers of units are involved.
I play as British, and British vs Maya is the only match up in game I will not play, as I see it as literally impossible because of eagle warrior’s, and plumed archers killing all champions in like 4 secounds.
I think it is ok a little nerf to El Dorado. Mayas still have a discount to one of the meta unit of AoE2, and can train it almost forever with the lasting longer resources.
In the same way Franks didn’t dissapear with the bushes and UT’s tweaks Mayas still would be an S tier civ