Kind of harsh, want to roast Franks while you’re at it? 11
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No thank you, leave el dorado as it is, mayan already lost OA (and thats ok). let just see how well or bad they perform with the new UT and only then ask for new nerfs.
Also, eagles are heavily counter with the militia line, and many infantry units. And they cost 50 gold!!
But i do think is weird that mayan have the best egs by far… IMO egs shoud have 70hp and then el dorado should be nerfed to 30hp extras
A think the new tech is way better for mayans, it gives them something for the very late game. Now skirms can take down rams. Aside that, I’m still of the idea that mayans should at least get supplies.
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skirms do 2 damage per volley, once every 3 seconds.
archers do 1 damage every 1.65 seconds.
they’re practically identical in actual DPS because skirmishers are slow-firing.
you’re just wrong. they’re “better” at taking down rams but they are still terrible for the job.
Stats may be inaccurate, but according to aoestats.io Mayan win rate increase a lot between 1250 and 1650+ elo. I also wonder if that win rate is really caused by El Dorado or not.
Starting with an extra villager give Mayan an extra 30-ish ressources per minute, in addition to the Archer discount, which makes a Feudal rush into Archers very good. Given how top players can optimize their early game, isn’t the issue with Mayans high win rate lie in their eco bonus rather than a late game UT?
that’s old data.
aoestats.io shows patch 43210, which is not the patch of the new DLC.
I’m not. That tech is huge for trash wars.
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trash wars are extremely rare. getting to the point where this tech is useful is a stretch already. generally speaking, games end when one player runs out of gold very often, which makes lategame trash fights even more difficult to achieve if there’s any sort of resource control imbalance (which is practically inevitable)
it’s like giving a civ that’s pretty good on water more bonus damage on their Elite Cannon Galleon. If you’re at that point, there’s a 99.9% chance the game is already over.
you are exaggerating hard or you are vastly overestimating the value of even extremely strong lategame technologies as it pertains to the concept of winning. truth be told, a large majority of games will never even see a timeframe where this tech will be researched, not even due to it’s strength, but due to how few games will ever make it past that point.
even if you were right (which you aren’t, ask any player whose ever played a lategame trash war if they think the Mayans are going to be able to overcome that they have no trash cavalry for raiding by having a pitiful second javelin that automatically does 1 damage) saying “huge in trash wars” is practically saying “a big ant”. maybe you’re comparing it to it’s surrounding techs in the same age but it’s still a miniscule effect that won’t even be noticed by many. it’s irrelevant in 99% of games.
and no, before you force me to repeat myself, because i’d rather just save myself the time of snapping back at you for the same point again, you won’t be blending in skirms early to save yourself gold. you have one of the best archer rushes in the game and you have massed eagle spams to counter civs with oppressive archers. there’s no reasonable motive for going skirmisher in any phase as mayans. all you’d be doing is playing into counters that you want your opponent to avoid and failing to use your ranges to mass a unit that actually scales.
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Yes, you are right, trash wars are rare, but I believe that this new tech can also be useful early imp against anyone making archers or skirms, which is more common.
Making more (powerful) skirms (and eagles since you have more gold) can help quite a lot against Britons/Vietnamese/Ethiopians/Saracen/Italian/Mongols/Chinese (and probably more).
I can only agree to this.
yes and no.
you don’t want to make eagles and skirms together because they handle the same types of units. against chu ko nu you could consider it to be reasonable because of how strong they are generally against high pierce targets and they really don’t allow you to utilize your rams well, but beyond those you don’t want skirmishers against any of these targets. mangudai will just outmaneuver you for the mongols matchup, skirm affects nothing here. Any civ with decent infantry can blend in militia line (even chinese can manage that and do fine) and then any civ that lacks good militia will just blend in hussars. There’s about five different options to blow up eagle+skirm and it’s a really poor composition, almost as poor as simply mixing archers and skirms 1:1.
I think for every civ except Britons and Mongols I’d rather try my hand with Onagers than attempt to make skirms work and be countered for my trouble.
Partially, but you don’t have to make them at the same time at the same place.
You can just add a few skirms to your archers to make them tankier, or go (temporarily) full skirm + pike.
Then you can use your gold in many different ways :
- Eagles into eco raids,
- Eagles into treb sniping,
- More trebuchets,
- Keep for a delayed big push (with siege),
- Constant (slow) production of archers.
If your opponent starts infantry, you can go archers again (you have archery ranges and upgrades ready).
If he goes hussar you can go halb (yet eagles works fine against them).
We could speak for hours about army compositions and strategies, my point is only that I believe than this UT can spare some gold for potential better uses.
We will see only later (with stats and experience) if this tech is truly useful or not.
not in the lategame. at that point the dps of the crowd is far more valuable especially when you should expect an enemy to provide a composite army. as in, not in the phase where this tech could be used. the tech isn’t available when it’s useful (and even if it were it’d be too expensive to grab) and it’s not useful when it’s available.
look, I agree that postulating about this tech this early is probably meaningless and we need some testing to feel out it’s actual strength. that’s like, 100% of the reason why I think this thread is meaningless. we can’t agree on the use case of the new tech and with that in tow we’re already talking about el dorado nerfs. if we should agree that this needs testing before we can make a declaration as to it’s effectiveness then I don’t see why we should try to nerf el dorado now.
Trash wars are rare, yes, I have never stated otherwise. But at the same, arabia is not the only map out there, where games end early. The new tech is situational. It replaced obsidian arrow, another very situational tech…which could become broken, in those rare situations.
I state my point once again: the removal of obsidian arrows is a small thing in the grand scheme of things of the mayan overall performance. It doesn’t make any tangible difference, because going obsidian arrows was suboptimal play for mayans. As such, any claim that the latest update was a significant nerf of mayans is nonsense. If you still don’t get it, I just give up, as I would end up telling you the same over and over.
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Obsidian arrows is not “suboptimal” and using that word in that way is not reasonable. Obsidian arrows was a technology with a specific use. In that specific use case it is, inarguably, optimal. What you mean to say was “it was niche” and how wide that niche is was up for discussion. Within that niche it was very, very strong, perhaps too strong. Now it doesn’t exist.
I don’t care what you think you believe about the Mayans’ strengths as of the patch, or prior to the patch. If you honestly believe, for even a second, that removing an option from a civ to use in a game (not changing it, removing it) is not a nerf, you certainly will be unable to convince me of any more.
This was a nerf. Best give up. I’m going to tell you the same thing over and over.
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Actually what if the new tech from mayan would also affect plumed archer i know its wierd since its currently specified for skirms only but in a matter of fact if the second arrow isnt pierce damage they could even without massive accuracy but with like a large mass kill huskarls
Still waiting for fresh datas, but Tatoh also says this tech is too strong (13/02/2021).
Hera doesn’t think El Dorado is too strong (15/02/2021).
probably realizes just how utterly dependent upon el dorado eagles they are for infantry.
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Probably, but to be fair, I’m convinced he said (earlier) it was “strong”, but not that is was “too strong”, so I’m unsure he really changed his mind. I corrected my initial post about that.
i think the result is like this because 100hp eagle is iconic. Like no one would ask to nerf mangudai, with everyone knows they are OP in imperial
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