Hello,
As stated in this thread, Dorado is a powerful tech : TheViper & Nili state El Dorado needs to be nerfed.
Even after the recent castle UT rework, I think Mayan’s eagles are too powerful in late game, much more than Inca’s or Aztec’s.
In comparaison, the vietnamese UT giving +50 HP to elephant seem ridiculous, since it only gives +20% HP while El dorado gives +67% !! Sixty-seven percent is huge ! It is to be confirmed (after last patch), but TheViper & Nili seem to agree on the need of a nerf on this specific tech.
I personally think +30HP would be enough.
EDIT1 : TheViper says (05/02/2021) « it is slightly too strong, yes ».
EDIT2 : Sitaux agrees (05/02/2021) El Dorado is too strong as well.
EDIT3 : Tatoh also says (13/02/2021) this tech is too strong.
EDIT4 : MBL is unsure (14/02/2021), « maybe 90 total HP », « maybe not ».
EDIT5 : Hera doesn’t think El Dorado is too strong (15/02/2021).
Elephants are costly and hard countered by units that don’t cost gold: Spear-line units. The Vietnamese elephant still loses to even non elite War Elephant.
As for EL Dorado. Maybe in pro games in open maps it’s strong. But Champions counter eagles very well and cost far less gold. Mayans don’t even have Champions. Mayans need this sort of thing. Because they lack many types of units they can put on the field. Their entire army is nothing but infantry and archers, and siege missing a key tech like siege engineers.
No gunpowder. No knights. No scouts. The lack of diversity of units is a big weakness. They may need these tanky eagle warriors.
Yet Maya has a 55,47% winrate on arabia in 1650+ games, it’s HUGE.
And with their new skirm tech, it’s not like they have no option on trash units.
In the redbull wololo 3 finale, Liereyy didn’t manage to do anything against those eagles, even though he had tatars, which are versatile and were still unerfed at the time : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_lD3tnlhaE&t=9765
I don’t care very much about ranked play. But, since were talking about an Imperial Age tech. We can assume the other player is in the Imperial Age as well. Post IMP, fully boomed Goths melt Mayans, there is almost nothing they can do stop them most of the time. Champs melt eagles, Huskarl melt archers.
Does EL Dorado help them there? Mayans have been nerfed quite hard, they can’t rush as easy with archers breaking down walls with Obsidian Arrows gone. So, they will have harder time even rushing goths who lack stone walls.
Now, let’s say 2v2, or 3v3, or 4v4 games, all Goths and Mayans. Is there anyway they could win such a games? Or even one of the players is Teutons on the Goth team, with super heavy infantry.
that data isn’t up to date with the recent patch. as is they lack both champion and supplies, meaning they have precious little answer to units like the huskarl.
They have an incredible economy, massive discounts on a meta unit (arbs) and a cav archer equivalent UU. my vote is that people are so used to mayans being strong they think the civ deserves it.
In comparison you have civs like italy that are weak in the most important phase of the game and have zero top tier unit(no paladin, no HCA, no buff for cavalier, no siege engineer /siege onager) . Or tatars that struggle against the same match up that mayans do except they don’t have an OP el dorado to help them out and don’t have the massive early eco that mayans do. Or huns that can’t fight Incas in the late game.
There’s a number of poor match ups. It doesn’t justify giving a civ an OP UT. If anything el dorado could give then +30 hp and +1 Eagle armour to balance out to handle infantry civs better while dying easier from everything else.
Afaik el dorado eagles cost effectively beat cavaliers. Like WTF??
yeah that’s why they’ve been nerfed so much already, including 4 nerfs since DE alone (el dorado nerf, supplies nerf, Plumes nerf, and Obsidian Arrows), and that’s not even counting the nomad nerf. how about we wait to see how the most recent nerf affects them before nerfing them again?
well considering they literally get bonus damage against cavalry, they are kind of intended to be able to hold their own against them.
remember, these are civs without cavalry of their own, that’s why eagles are so essential to the civs.
giving them +1 eagle armor isn’t going to do crap because huskarls are still doing 15 damage a swing after your proposed nerf, meaning that they die in 6 hits. right now they die in 7. so post nerf they lose harder to huskarls then they did before.
Yeah just double checked. 20 el dorado eagles to 14 FU cavaliers. Eagles win. Saving 400 food. They should at least lose to FU cavaliers since they decimate archers and siege already. Literally one mofo counter. ONE.
Like what garbage is that? An archer civ that fields better cavalry than actual cavalry? The devs thought mesos should be so good.!? Why it took them so long to nerf aztecs is beyond me but the next one is el dorado…
Very focused civs like britons, goths and celts all have weaker heavy cav so “multi purpose civs” like Italians or Chinese can beat their heavy cav with their own. And there’s a difference between holding their own and actually beating them.
If a generic FU cavalier loses to an el dorado Eagle. What do you think a sub par briton cavalier does.
And this is on a civ that already has a huge bonus for its archers… The el dorado Eagle would be much more understandable on Incas or even aztecs who don’t have super versions of a meta unit…
FWIW OA was never such a huge issue. Yes mayans are weaker but not by some massive amount. Reddit is full of posts about how the loss of OA doesn’t actually hurt that much since you win the fights anyway so you never necessarily needed to specifically invest in the UT instead of siege.
yes let’s ignore the massive difference in cost of upgrading those units (elite eagle is 800 food and 500 gold, and el dorado is 750 food and 450 gold). which means even before attack upgrades the Mayan player has invested 1550 food and 950 gold. cavalier + bloodlines costs 450 food and 400 gold by comparison. that means that even before everything else the Mayan player has already spent 1100 more food on his army, and 550 more gold.
then the army is another 400 food and 1000 gold vs 840 food and 1050 gold. which means the total value spent is 1950 food and 1950 gold for the mayan player vs the cavalier player spending 1290 food (almost 700 less food) and 1600 gold (350 less gold). then you throw in the fact that the mayan player had to make a castle to even research El Dorado and you have a civ that has an additional 700 food, 350 gold and 650 gold invested int othe fight.
then maybe you should equalize the fights resources. you know your fight literally has 700 more food, 350 more gold, and 650 more stone invested by the mayan player.
yeah that’s why all the pros have been happy to see it nerfed.
except your answer just changes how they survive. instead of surviving based on having absurd health, now they would be tanky and even better at fighting units like those cavaliers you were mentioning. let alone what they would do to units like light cavalry/hussar.
While i admit its higher than i realised. Throwing money at something doesn’t justify its power.
HCA should therefore beat paladins. They’re more expensive to tech after all…
Tarkans with marauders should be a thing.
People should train EGC, ETK and Ekarambit. Because you know you paid a lot for their tech so of course they should now be able to counter irrational things… Because mayans do it. So why not everyone else?
Serjeants should beat the militia line… Because you know what their elite tech is a heck load more expensive than militia line tech.
What the actual eff?? I said eagle armour. So they take less bonus damage. They would have 10hp less. So they would die faster to everything except infantry with Eagle attack bonuses.
Not that it makes such a huge difference but cav armour tech is more expensive so it’s probably about 100f and g less.
Its an imperial fight so it’s more than likely both have castles anyway. But yeah sure whatever add the cost of the castle anyway. If it was a castle age fight i would say for sure the castle cost matters. But it isn’t so it doesn’t.
In the same way that neither does the massive cost of the paladin suddenly make it any less overbearing. Its an investment which has generally greater returns than the actual payment…
Example: if someone can actually afford the cost it swings the game so massively.
Never will be, as long as Huns have Paladin, which will always be a better investment than Elite Tarkan.
GCs do get trained, against Cavalry, TKs are out-performed by Champions and Paladins, and Karambits are a waste of Gold on a civ that has a much better unit costing only Food (Trashanders).
No it should not, otherwise it would be legitimately OP, they are a tankier but less cost-effective version of the Militia line, and are perfect that way.
No, it should not, since it already beats Arbs, Champs, Halbs, and Siege.
So that’s 6 cavaliers in imperial,likely less but let’s be generous.
How many people have won or lost a game because of 6 cavaliers in imperial. Because that’s the lead that mayans need to catch up to make up the cost, and now they have a cost effective counter to literally everything if you don’t have champs. Using a unit that beats everything cost effectively, is better vs archers and siege AND monks than cavaliers, and dodges its only counter unless you have paladins/super cavaliers.
And this is coming from an archer civ. A civ that beats other archer civs with its own pierce resistant UU or dirt cheap FU arbs.