The Hetairoi is an overpowered military unit that needs to be nerfed.
A military unit cannot have area damage. It ruins the game experience, it’s not possible for a single unit to attack multiple units at the same time like a cyclops. Area damage should only be available to mythic units.
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It makes no sense for a cavalry unit with swords to have area damage. It would be like the Titan only dealing damage to one unit when attacking. It would be very unpleasant to watch, just like watching the Hetairoi dealing area damage.
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This is an expensive mythic age unique unit from a fort. They should be impactfull and not useless like they used to be.
Also this is historicaly accurate- They where shock cavalry, made to run into and crush lines of infantry, damaging multiple people at a time.
If anything it’s wierder that no other Cavalery (namely elephants) have aoe damage. But that’s a gameply decision more than anything (if everyone the same no ones unique etc…).
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The Hetairoi costs almost the same as the Jarl, but it’s like you’re fusing a Jarl and a Cyclops, which is totally unfair. The only military unit with area damage is the Hetairoi.
One thing is to make a strong unit, and another is to make a powerful unit that attacks multiple units at once as if it were a mythical unit.
Practically the Hetairoi is a mythical unit immune to heroes that does not cost favor. which is totally unfair.
Jarl has more hp and much more heck armor, resulting in 240 effective heck hp vs just 168. That’s almost a wooping 50% difference!
So jarl is better vs smaller groups and at tanking (which compliment the norse otherwise fragile line-up), while hetairoi is clearly ment to be uses vs blobs of units as a glass canon, but can’t tank or hold in 1v1. They have a very different role, it’s like comparing tomatoes and oranges.
Needless to say, a cyclop is tankyer than both combined… they got their aoe attack, but nothing close to their durability.
Not to mention jarl is heroic age, still a bit cheaper and created from a cheaper building while being tankyer.
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Hetairoi can attack multiple units at once like a mythic unit and for that reason is superior to any unit in the game which is unfair. I really hate that Poseidon players only spam Hetairoi which is ruining the game.
People don’t want to play the game because it’s too unfair, some units are too superior to others like the Hetairoi.
BEFORE THE BATTLE:
AFTER THE BATTLE:
What you are seeing are Hetaroi buffed with Dionysus Thracian Horses, which gives Lifesteal based on damage dealt (30% DMG as healing). As an AOE unit, their DPS can increase a lot when there’s a big army being attacked—this is most problematic in team games, where you are able to make an all-Hetaroi army in the first place.
The only change that’d be needed to balance them is to make the lifesteal only depend on the primary target, so AOE effects don’t explode in terms of healing provided.
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It’s completely ridiculous that just 3 upgraded Hetairoi can destroy an entire army of 20 archers in 10 seconds as if the Hetairoi were cyclops. The Hetairoi are mythical units that cost no favors, please developers nerf the Hetairoi and remove the area damage, they ruin the game.
Personally, I have no problem with them having splash damage. I think that’s a cool feature that works quite well for a cavalry unit.
But they most definitely do need a nerf. They’re insanely good even against counter-cavalry units like katapeltes. It just makes it impossible to deal with.
I dunno what that nerf should look like, though. Maybe reduction in the trample damage. Maybe @Thanik’s idea of changing Thracian Horses to only trigger on the primary target. Maybe a more general nerf to something like health, damage, or armour. But it needs something.
I would advocate for smaller nerfs and waiting before doing any more nerfs. Reducing their splash area from 2.5 to 2 could very well be enough, considering it would lower the damage output on secondary targets as the damage is lower closer to the edge of the range.
If we were to lower it to 1.5 I would like to see their cost and training time changed so it’s easier to make, 50Food 90Gold 3Pop 20Sec → 60Food 75Gold 3Pop 17Sec (lower Food cost than Prodromi and slightly lower gold cost than Hippeis but more total than each, also equal to knights in AoE2 as a fun easter egg).
Considering it’s main problem is that it’s hilariously strong when massed which is easier to do in team games. I would go with the latter since it would be better if it were easier to mass but less strong WHEN done so.
I believe the point of this discussion is precisely to show how ridiculous this special ability is for the heitairoi. It’s not about whether the area damage is too strong or not.
One way to adjust this area damage per attack would be to create an area damage effect when the heitairoi charges the enemy unit: as soon as they make contact, there could be an area damage effect, which would make sense since Alexander’s cavalry used to charge through the enemy’s shield wall, causing some sort of ‘area damage’ in a way.
The only way to make the heitairoi deal area damage and have it make sense is during their attack charge. An area damage with slashing rather than crushing damage is just a joke.
And I enjoy that they have Area damage, it makes them unique and it’s gated behind enough high tech. I don’t think it should be a cooldown ability like the coustillier from AoE2, that is frankly just going to cause the same problems as that unit has, doubly so as the Hetairoi has way to much pierce armor to be able to shoot it down before it crashes into your frontline.
I am fully aware of what this kind of discussion is about and I am going to make my voice heard as well, that is the point of this forum. LuckyTigers first reply is a most excellent response and summarizes a perfect counterpoint to this entire discussion, second response is equally well made.
I have seen just how devastating it can be, but I rather work within its original design idea to bring it in a reasonable range in the powercurve. Currently it can deal with its counters a little to well, but that it currently eats archers in game where ranged units are squishy and requires som infantry or myth units in front of them is completely reasonable.
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Who wins? An army full of diverse mythical units, both units with unique powers and with many hit points and high damage, different units including archers and anti-cavalry soldiers in almost its entire composition. Or an army of Heitairoi?
Not. a. Single. Katapeltes.
Murmillo are generalists and not a great answear against cavalry.
Destroyers have low hack armour and is a terrible answear against cavalry.
A Contarious here and there, not a great answear against cavalry.
The Hero Turmae and and Arci can barely scratch the Hetairoi.
The Fanatics probably did something, though they’re not very cost effective.
3 Automata, 4 Dryads, 2 Behemoths and 3 Centimanus could done something, if there is Olympian weapons involved they’re only half as effective.
All of this played out in “Mythic Strike”, where snowballing is everything and by the number of toxotes in lane compared to in prep shows that this snowball has rolled for far to long. Lifesteal was probably involved and it is a very snowball focused strategy.
Your picture is only evidence of your own ignorance, had there been lots of HARD CAVALRY COUNTERS you would maybe have a point, had I not understood the many variables of Mythic Strike I would probably been a bit stumped.
Go into some testing (Scenario Editor or even play some more MS but try to think critically), get some:
Prodromos/Hoplites with Sarissa/Mass Toxotes with Shafts of plague(provided they have som good meat in front of them)/Spearmen with Spear of Horus/Camels/Hirdmen+Throwing Axemen/Katapeltes
and when using myth units, use some that have more debillitating abilities:
Medusae/Frost Giants/Fire Giants/Wadjets/Lamphades/Centimanus probably works(but might be too expensive in MS).
Ranged Hack/Divine damage, cav Multipliers, debilitating abilities and High Hack Armor, just use a lot of these in conjunction otherwise you aren’t proving any point.
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Hetairoi do not cost favor however they are more powerful than a mythic unit.
comparison:
20 Hetairoi vs 20 Anubita = Hetairoi Win for 20 - 0 (20 Anubites dead and 0 Hetairoi dead)
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What upgrades are being used here?
I can’t make anything out other than Heavy+Bronze upgrades on the Hetairoi, so I assume you have put red player in Mythic Age start. Do they have Spirited Charge, Dionysia, Thracian Horses or Olympian Weapons?
Probably not, but the Anubites visibly lack the Feet of the Jackal upgrade so I don’t think the Anubites have Crimson Linen or the Mythic Age+40%HP and damage but I can’t know for sure.
These things are important to write out when doing comparisions otherwise it’s difficult to make a fair assessment.
But if it’s Bronze Armory+Heavy upgrade Hetairoi (hitting about 2 extra enemies for about 50% damage each) against an equal army of unupgraded Anubites then it doesn’t seem too wild of an outcome.
Anubites have 11Hack and 0.8Reload and Hetairoi probably take 0.95(Base hack armour)x0.9x0.9(upgrades) damage of that =10.580625 dps. They didn’t use their ability becaese of it’s minimum range and the way you placed them, making this an easy calculation. Heavy Hetairoi has 200HP (160x(1+0.1+0.15)) which is an equal amout HP to anubites, and 15 dps (10x(1+0.1+0.2+0.1+0.1) + area damage (basically 30 if my assumption is correct) anubites have 60% Hack armour. 30(ish)*0.4=12(ish)
12(ish)>10.580625
and since you basically placed all units 1v1 (except in range of area dmg) it’s not that weird not a single hetairoi died.
Completely expected outcome.
Wow, that was unnecessary.
No,
it was HARSH,
but not unnecessary.
You posted a picture you thought was in favour of your argument, but you ended up showing that a powerful unit is just EXTREMELY powerful when it doesn’t have proper counters against it, (especially in a custom game mode where often a cumulating number advantage that overgrows trickling reinforcements reign supreme, not indicative of a match).
I do agree that it is too powerful but the implication of your posted picture was that it is currently unstoppable and your example is void of counter units, that is a faulty argument and worth calling out harshly.
As in your position you are arguing for a major change to be made, you HAVE to present good evidence of why that change has to be made, showing yourself that you don’t have a solid grasp of mechanics of the game is indeed ignorant.
Now on to myself, I have mostly refuted evidence in this thread but before I have proposed a change myself a change based on merely anecdotal evidence. That’s not ideal even if some of it is corroborated in this thread and so I will partly remedy that with this video of an AoM youtuber I watch: Bennoloth AoM - Hetairoi Analysis.
The link to the video in question starts it where I refer to where it may be a touch too strong but I suggest watching the whole thing, as it is a great analasys.
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I will not read your comment for obvious reasons and because it’s too long. The fact is, what everyone is saying, area damage with a sword is a joke. And if you defend a joke…
Then remain ignorant.
Not reading arguments has no impact on their validity.
@LuckyTiger7076 already explained what the area damage represents.
Your second comment in this thread acknowledged that you could buy into a cavalry charge doing area damage.
And I made an argument on the grounds of mechanics why it is a better idea that they deal continous area damage instead of it being an ability.
Lastly, your appeal to the majority that everyone thinks it’s a joke is currently only corroborated by 2 people in this thread and one of those is yourself. Where at least 3 people (including myself) in this thread have explicitly accepted the mechanic. With a current 3 additional people liking luckytigers first comment who presumably can at least suspend their disbelief on this mechanic.
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