English are too strong

[joanka93val]

In fact is free, every civ needs to age up. I can get to castle with abbasid and get 2 cammels and english got to castle and got a keep, map control/base defense and 2 free workshops like what the fuck (?) XD

The problem is not the White tower, the problem is the combo between king+2TC+white tower, that leads to a super fast and safe 2TC and castle.

This is not something one can argue, it’s a fact. Abbey + king to push + 2TC + castle with White tower. I almost see this in every match.

[GorbMort]

Which is exactly the problem in approaching this by saying “too many free things”. We’re now talking about a specific set of choices that (apparently) provide too much benefit combined / don’t reward alternative choices.

It’s funny because I remember when the AoK was a garbage choice, yeah? Longbows every day, originally.

So what do we do? Nerf the King, so any other strat becomes less viable? Or nerf The White Tower? When other landmarks are just as good, if not better?

Or maybe give other factions more tools? Perhaps? That way you can evaluate it per-matchup vs. nerfing the English vs. every MU.

[joanka93val]

Yes, it’s easy, you have 2 choices, nerf english if it’s so strong, or buff the civs who need it.

The problem with buffing all civs instead of nerfing one is probably you will generate other problems in other civs who will need other changes.

By the way, I exposed many things about why this combo is so strong and maybe, just maybe need a nerf, but you didn’t agree in anyone.

This is the same situation as the combo jans+sipahi+GB, they finally nerfed a bit the GB in the last patch instead of buffing all the other civs. It’s more logic touch just a civ, but you know, main Ottos and main english will fight till the end

[Adribird90]

I’m not one for extreme balance changes, so maybe the King’s passive ability can be slightly reduced or the cost of farms slightly increased and remove the White Tower producing at twice the speed.

[grizzgolf]

@Shneider177

ayyubids have the fastest FAST CASTLE that is also very viable; way better than even HRE. Also their unit roster, eco buffs, and unique abilities gives them answers to every situation! At Diamond plus Ayyubids only have 1 BAD matchup (English…go figure…) ; everything is is near 50-50 or better for Ayyubids.

I need to look them up then. I think I have played them maybe twice. Seem like a good civ

[GorbMort]

@joanka93val

The problem with buffing all civs instead of nerfing one is probably you will generate other problems in other civs who will need other changes.

Everything generates changes though. Nerfing English affects every MU, buffing the MUs that struggle against English affects their MUs in turn.

I dunno, I don’t have a smart answer. I just don’t like “they’re strong because they get free stuff”. Arguably their Farms are one of their best things, and they’re not free.

[joanka93val]

If you only extract this of all I’ve said then you haven’t read my messages.

[GorbMort]

Problems in analysis lead to problems in conclusions. Agree to disagree.

[joanka93val]

Unfortunately it’s hard to discuss something with you because while I’m trying to give my point of view, you are only going off the deep end.

Have a nice day, I’m up to discuss with whoever wants to, not facing fallacies anymore, bye

[GorbMort]

Good way to convince the devs and other players is to retreat into calling posts “fallacies”

I meant what I said. Sometimes disagreement is normal and reasonable, and I thought it was here. Different perspectives on a potential problem. Be well!

[MatM1996]

@KnowingLamb8370

By the way this is a good point when the weak civs get buff strong civs shouldnt get nerfed because this way its harder to balance,either one should buffed or nerfed is enough i think.English king balance is so easy just add 150 gold or food cost to king and make abbey of kings landmark to produce wynguard units if the age4 wynguard castle landmark built.

Of course, I agree…they will find some way to balance it…

@joanka93val

3 spears counter the king but to produce these 3 spears (240 resources) you need to make also a barrack (150w) making a total of 390 resources to just defend from a free unit.

True, but it still can’t be that you don’t have 3 measly spearmans in the 2nd age… if it were defensive, go and pass, but in a rush?..

@joanka93val

Too much free things…

@joanka93val

If you read again my message, I’m not saying make the king impactness. But, 1 free unit who can safely get you to 2TC and a free castle on age up?

Even more the free castle can produce siege as 2 siege workshops, whose costs 700w.

I think the nerfs maybe could be to these safe path to boom, getting a free castle and 2 workshops. I think white tower maybe need to produce as 1 workshop or 1/2 or 3/4 of a workshop.

@joanka93val

In fact is free, every civ needs to age up. I can get to castle with abbasid and get 2 cammels and english got to castle and got a keep, map control/base defense and 2 free workshops like what the fuck (?) XD

The problem is not the White tower, the problem is the combo between king+2TC+white tower, that leads to a super fast and safe 2TC and castle.

This is not something one can argue, it’s a fact. Abbey + king to push + 2TC + castle with White tower. I almost see this in every match.

Maybe they want it to be like AoE 3 where you get free stuff all the time throughout the homecity…

@GorbMort

This goes on forever though. To get the King you build a Landmark. Anyone can theorycraft BOs based on comparing numbers. It’s easy to make the good parts of a civ seem good in isolation.

You want the King to be impactful. You don’t want it not to be because it’s half the reason you build the Landmark.

Who’s not building a Barracks? Who’s not building a Landmark?

Comparing a free unit to units that cost resources is always going to seem unfair. But at the same time you’re not doing a fair comparison. Who is the other civ? What’s their BO? What are their UUs? How much easier or harder do they handle the King?

@GorbMort

The White Tower is a second landmark. Like that’s the entire point. These things aren’t free.

@GorbMort

Which is exactly the problem in approaching this by saying “too many free things”. We’re now talking about a specific set of choices that (apparently) provide too much benefit combined / don’t reward alternative choices.

It’s funny because I remember when the AoK was a garbage choice, yeah? Longbows every day, originally.

So what do we do? Nerf the King, so any other strat becomes less viable? Or nerf The White Tower? When other landmarks are just as good, if not better?

Or maybe give other factions more tools? Perhaps? That way you can evaluate it per-matchup vs. nerfing the English vs. every MU.

Of course, I couldn’t have said it better…this is about cost-benefit, to have the king you spent a landmark and the minimum is that it is strong, but it is an expense that you made for nothing…they are to have different strategies available with different civs…

@joanka93val

Yes, it’s easy, you have 2 choices, nerf english if it’s so strong, or buff the civs who need it.

The problem with buffing all civs instead of nerfing one is probably you will generate other problems in other civs who will need other changes.

By the way, I exposed many things about why this combo is so strong and maybe, just maybe need a nerf, but you didn’t agree in anyone.

This is the same situation as the combo jans+sipahi+GB, they finally nerfed a bit the GB in the last patch instead of buffing all the other civs. It’s more logic touch just a civ, but you know, main Ottos and main english will fight till the end

@Adribird90

I’m not one for extreme balance changes, so maybe the King’s passive ability can be slightly reduced or the cost of farms slightly increased and remove the White Tower producing at twice the speed.

Yes, maybe eventually the devs are going to balance them towards the RBW… I wouldn’t worry too much about it…

@grizzgolf

I need to look them up then. I think I have played them maybe twice. Seem like a good civ

They are very good siege civ and a bit of rush if you know how to handle them well…

@GorbMort

Everything generates changes though. Nerfing English affects every MU, buffing the MUs that struggle against English affects their MUs in turn.

@GorbMort

I meant what I said. Sometimes disagreement is normal and reasonable, and I thought it was here. Different perspectives on a potential problem. Be well!

Yes, as usual… the balance always changes with the patches, when the new civs come out they will be OPs and we will complain until they fix them…

[joanka93val]

One thing is obvious, along the last patches there are more and more civs who gets free things by passive. Example, ayyubids, abbasid with their military and trade wing, the english king, JD itself, etc…

[MatM1996]

Of course, they want to make the AoE 4 civs more similar to the AoE 3 ones by adding new UUs and new things but without breaking the balance in the process…