Feitoria rework

When the Portuguese were announced with The African Kingdoms I was thinking the Feitoria would work in a very different way. A lot of tweaks later since release the unique building of the Portuguese is still very situational and is usually only worth it in very late post-Imp games or on water maps where wood runs out. I know there are some niche strategies that involve fast Imping on Arena or other meme related playstyles but in general, it is more useful to just ignore the building and use villagers instead. Thinking about different ideas of how other games solve the unlimited resource trickle I believe we can rework the Feitoria into something the Portuguese might benefit more from and put more emphasis on a unique playstyle.

Right now the Feitoria costs 250g 250s 20pop

For this you get a constant trickle of 1.6f, 1w, 0.7g, 0.3s per second.

This is a big investment but after roughly 13min the building payed off its own cost. Due to this huge investment but slow resource trickle it is usually not worth it to construct a Feitoria and rather invest the 20 pop space in villager creation.

I believe that another approach would help more (as already seen in the Age franchise).
Change 1:

  • Feitoria is available in the Castle Age

  • Feitoria cost reworked to 250g 250s 15pop

  • Feitoria generates EITHER 2.4f OR 1.5w OR 1g OR 0.4s (+50% over the current rate)

Comment: I think it is more fitting to choose what resource the Feitoria generates as opposed to a low trickle of EVERY resource. With more specific control over your resources, the buiding could be used for a broader spectrum of situations and not just niche strategies. You could choose the resource by clicking an icon similarly to the market after the Feitoria gets constructed. Maybe a small changing cost should be implemented as well to balance this though.

Change 2:

  • Feitoria technology available in the Imperial Age (could be called something like „Trading Network“, I don‘t care too much about the name though)

  • Cost: 800f 600g (or more, this is powerful after all)

  • Effect: Feitoria workrate +30%

this would change the individual trickle of each resource to 2.4f→3.12f, 1.5w→1.9w, 1g→1.3g, 0.4s→0.5s per second.

Comment: I think it‘s weird that you can upgrade your villager gather rate and carry capacity multiple times as well as military training time, but the efficiency of the Feitoria remains the same. An optional technology allows to rely more on Feitoria resources as opposed to creating more villagers as a more efficient and cost effective option.

Of course these values are a rough estimate of what sounds balanced to me. I was however not able to test this in the editor (not enough experience and knowledge) and would like to know your opinions on this rework idea. For me it sounds like something the Feitoria should have always been like: a resource generator where you have the control over what it actually does. Please suggest better values if my proposal is too strong or to weak. Maybe even a fixed 3res/s is more appropriate as only one resource gets generated per building. What do you think? :slight_smile:

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i think the fundamental problem is, either feitorias a strictly better than vills (when wood runs out currently) or they are strictly worse than vills (when wood still exsits currently) in pop efficiently and depending on that you either get an compeletly unfair advanatge as portuguese (civ win) or a compelety useless bonus.

The idea of a fast imp feitria boom has a very small viablitly windows and can be ignored currently, since vill eco catches up very fast.

What is the goal of the rework? Increasing the windows feitroais boom can compete? Make Feitorias good enough to go pure into it instead of vills in more scenarios?

Without changing the fundamental pop cost mechanic to limit feitorias, i dont think the issues at hand can ever be really solved and i do not believe your suggetions can either.

Also in AOM the chinese gardens work exatly like what you suggest or AOE 3 factories. I like that aoe 2 has very few of these kind of mechanics and i would like to not see this implemented.

Change it so that only 3 feitrias can be constructed (like cumans can build 2 tcs in feudal), then make the 3 feitorias slighlty more pop or euqally efficient like vilaggers (reduce pop cost to 10 for example).
This will give feitorias a reason to exist without opening the gates of hell where once civ has an completely unfair advantage.

Alternatively make the first feitoria population cost free and otherwise keep the current mechanics.

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The Feitoria is fine. It’s a Post-Imperal thing. Works great in Diplomacy and 4v4 team games. Not so much in 1v1. If balanced around 1v1, I could easily see it become totally broken OP. In fact, I found the recent buff to the Feitoria even too strong.

feitorias is only good on diplo pilgrims to camp the ilands :grin: most fun thing to do in all of aoe 2. In 3v3 or 4v4 it is better to use your pop space for trade than build feitorias.

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i agree with geo and bomber either the Feitoria is imba or it is weak, and how do you balance that?

I don’t understand why everyone is saying Feitoria is bad. This is one of the strongest bonuses that exist in this game. For some weird reason pro players build them as soon as they hit imperial age. This is overall bad idea since 20 villagers work rate is better than feitoria. The main purpose of the feitoria is to build them when you realize you lose control of gold, stone or only few tiles of gold left on the map.

When there is no gold and stone on the map the feitorias are really powerful, because only gold income in that state is from relics ( if you collected any ) or selling food and stone.

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how often do you see pros use Portuguese in tournaments?
how often do you see tournament games getting to imp these days?

Sorry but I don’t get Your point. I stated fact that Feitorias are powerful. You asking me how often portuguese were picked in tournaments ? Why ?

If I will state that Jennisaries are one of the best castle age uniuque unit you will reply with question how often i see Turks in tournaments ?

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you state pros are making them. this is true. but on the ladder. in tournaments, Portuguese aren’t even seeing play.

no, because castle age jans are strong. but feitoria being strong because pros like to meme on the ladder means nothing.

it takes over 1h real world time before wood becomes so sparse that feitoiras are advantageous.
On a map like BF you are better of with 4 farmser and 16 woodcutter and then sell food and wood, and you end up with more ressources than with a feitoria, except stone.

The stone generation is nice but doesnt win you games, you cant attack with stone, if you have 1 feitoria the stone income is too low to do anything. if you have 5 feitorias you get quite some stone but you got in total too low ressource income or too small army to defende your precoius stone buildings, because they take up so much pop. You are stuck in defense with your only hope that the enemy eventually runs out of wood.

Feitroias is good in lategame for noobs, thats about it… (no insult intended). But here it is indeed not bad, thats is also why just straigth out buffing the feitorias rates or pop efficiency leads us to the hell where one civ has an unfair big advantage (in noob games).

Since the devs wont do a rework of tghe feitorias, (they had 5 years time). I think the current sitatuion is the best we can hope for.

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In total resources generated, the Feitoria, which is about equal to 10 Villagers in practice, pays back its cost in about 4 minutes, 20 seconds. This time includes the 2 minutes for construction with 1 Villager. Compare this to 10 Post Imperial Villagers which take, depending on the resource, between 19.5 minutes on all wood, up to 26 minutes on all food to pay back their 500 food cost. This time includes the 5 minutes for training. These Villager numbers are from one TC. But making those same 10 Villagers out of 3 TC’s still takes, very roughly, 6.5 minutes on all wood, up to 8.5 minutes on all food, training time included. And the Villager numbers are very rough because they assume the Villagers have full upgrades, are free from bumping, and always have the shortest walking distance, making their in-game payback time higher than the numbers here.

1 Feitoria is objectively better than 10 Villagers. Now, 1 Feitoria vs. 20 Villagers enters into “It depends” territory. As the trade off is raiding resistance vs. a much stronger long term economy. A game might not last long enough to have both players constantly raiding each other. If a game doesn’t last long enough, then it would’ve been better to skip the Feitoria. But supposing a game lasts long enough, and supposing both players have about equal success in infiltrating each other’s economy, I’d wager the Portuguese player always comes out ahead in that matchup. As the opponent’s 20 Villagers are dead or idle, but the Portuguese’s 10 Feitoria “Villagers” work while under attack and will take a long time to destroy without siege or Redemption Monks.

Overall, I see the Feitoria as having a synergy with the Portuguese’s aggressive play style from the gold discount. The Portuguese can pressure early, build on the early aggression with a 2 TC boom, reach the Imperial Age at about the same time or faster than a pressured 3 TC boom, then build no more than 2 Feitorias to add 10 or 20 instantly working “Villagers” to further shorten the economy gap while simultaneously defensively fortifying the economy from how hard the Feitoria is to destroy.

Lastly, I don’t think the Feitoria ought to only count its gold and stone generation in paying back its cost. Because that’s like saying Villagers have to gather 50 food before going to another resource, or else they didn’t pay back their cost. Or Fishing Ships have to gather 75 wood before becoming profitable.

in my mod I have had a feitoria buff, which grants +20% resource regeneration over current stats, ontop of that pop is 17 instead of 20.

thats effectively ~40% more resource regenerated per population. it is a massive buff and i think +50% AND having it to 15 pop is way too much. maybe +50% OR 15 pop could work.

Is it an issue though? I don’t think it’s an issue if feitorias start to produce more gold than 20 villagers do by selling wood and food. Afterall, Saracens can produce ~35% more gold than some other civs (without guilds) via selling resources. Doesn’t seem to be bothering anyone. Why would it be broken for Feitoria to produce, say, 2 gold/second and take 25 pop? It’s about as much as 30 farmers with guilds or 36 farmers without guilds can afford to buy. So, it’s clearly better than other civs at making gold units in late imp, but you still can’t realistically afford the pop space for more than 2. And you can’t flood gold units anyways. Just as an example 5 farmers + 1 feitoria will allow you to produce 2 cavaliers every minute. 30 farmers allow you to produce 9 hussars every minute (or 9 light cav for Portuguese).

Anyway, I would like to share all my buff ideas for Feitorias (some are borrowed):
-Feitorias produce various resources, enough to get more gold than 20 generic villagers can get buy using market. It’s basically a more general way to achieve what I’ve said above.
-Feitorias produce 10 villager worth of food, 5 villager worth of wood, take 20 popspace. Lets you have unraidable (but weaker) eco in post-imp or boom faster than any other civ in early imp.
-Feitorias have an extra function, that can justify it’s existance even if they don’t have any straight advantage over conventional eco. This function can be: producing units (say, hand cannoneer, organ gun, bombard cannon), protecting villagers (can be garrisonned and shoots arrows, maybe also serves as a drop-off point) or some kind of unique bonus (maybe, every Feitoria gives you extra gold per use of the market, but Guilds are removed from the tech tree).
-Feitorias are accessible in Castle Age but produce less resource before reaching imp. This approach on it’s own is awkward because it assumes that the player will have to delete Feitorias in Imp to clear up the pop space, as they are not worth it at the moment.

I would just change it so that the first feitoria is population cost free.

Requires least amount of reworking, but turns one of the only 3 civ bonuses Portuguese actually have into an actual bonus without real downsides in any imperial age eco bonus in any situation you can afford one.

It is basically the goth bonus (10 extra pop), as 10 extra eco pop unlocked with first feitoria.

because as Saracens you have to actually go get the resources to sell, whereas Feitoria generates it out of thin air.

It gives Portuguese an advantage when resources run out, but Portuguese first have to survive to post-imp. Consider an Italians vs Portuguese matchup on Islands for example. It’s a very different game than Italians vs Vikings, because the Italians have to close out the game before post-imp. In compensation the Portuguese have a weaker castle age, to give other civs a chance to kill them before they get their ‘civ win’. It’s not a civ win if you have to survive 40 minutes to get it.

This is currently the case isn’t it? Feitorias are noticeably more efficient than vills after gold runs out (and noticably less efficient before that point).

You still need to actually get resources to produce anything. This is indeed an advantage over other civs, but I don’t see a way to abuse it to an extent that leaves the rest of the civs completely and utterly outclassed. The only possible issue I can think of so far is maybe Portuguese semi trash champion, that would require some careful calculation to evaluate properly.

It’s debatable whether they are more efficient at all. 20 farmers ideally produce 480 food/min, which equates to 80 gold/min with guilds (it’s a good base estimate for other civs). One Feitoria produces 96 food, 60 wood, 42 gold and 18 stone per minute. With guilds this equates to 68 gold/minute and 18 stone/minute. So, Feitorias technically outperform farmers if you sell stone. On the other hand, you need to pay 250 stone up front, so realistically, it will take 15 minutes (including construction time) just to pay for stone investment, and only then you will START to produce more gold per minute. I do not take into account the gold cost of Feitoria, since it’s more or less balanced out by the amount of food and wood you need to set up 20 farmers eco. Overall, I would say 20-25 minutes after you’ve built your Feitoria, you have about as much gold as your opponent (assuming both of you have guilds). I don’t know, maybe there are situations where you desperately need an income of stone that kicks in 15 minutes later. 11

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