Feudal Production Landmarks Balance Discussion & Proposals

Introduction & Proposal

Significantly alter production landmarks to provide scaling benefits or other benefits, especially the Council Hall/School of Cavalry while changing other landmarks to have scoutable choices. This proposal looks at English and French in a vacuum but ideally would be combined with other similar changes based around smoothing power spikes but maintaining civilization unique strengths.

Key is not to outright nerf these landmarks, but instead make them real choices that add more diversity to the game and reduce the ability to outright smother other civilizations with early units (ex: English vs Delhi).

Underlying Issue:

Landmarks that serve as production facilities cut out a significant wood cost, making it hard for other civilizations to equal their production without playing very defensive or cutting economic corners. Since these landmarks are usually default choices it removes a significant amount of early decision making and scouting/counterplay. This ends up making the early game somewhat one dimensional for these civilizations and their opponents when played to their strengths.

Summarized:

  • No Wood Cost
  • Boosted Production
  • Stronger Feudal Units
  • Lack of Economic Cost/Benefit of Other Landmarks

-----French-----

French Feudal Landmarks (Current):

  1. Chamber of Commerce – Acts as a Market. Traders return 30% more resources.
  2. School of Cavalry – Acts as Stable and Stables produce 20% faster.

Both of these proposals would ideally be implemented simultaneously or would result in an awkward power redistribution.

French Proposal 1 - Economic Redistribution via Chamber of Commerce

  • Acts as a Market. Traders return 30% extra resources.
  • French lose their default Villager production speed bonus (currently 10/15/20/20%).
  • The Chamber of Commerce decreases Villager & Trader production time by 10% per age (10/20/30).
  • Can Research Textiles (or provides it automatically).

Effect: Adds an opportunity cost to choosing School of Cavalry, and provides a scaling economic benefit instead of having a built in stronger economy + added production. Would eventually provide greater benefit.

French Proposal 2 – School of Cavalry Production

  • French lose access to Royal Knights in Feudal by default (Still can access in Castle otherwise).
  • The School of Cavalry unlocks Early Royal Knights in Feudal.
  • No longer acts as a Stable, but can research Stable upgrades (Veteran Horseman, Chivalry etc)
  • Decreases Stables build time by 10% per age (10/20/30).

Effect: Adds a clear benefit to scouting and a scaling effect to Cavalry production. Still able to put out significant Feudal pressure but sacrifices some economic benefit for stronger units.


-----English-----

English Feudal Landmarks (Current):

  1. Abbey of Kings - Heals all nearby units by +4 every 1.5 seconds while out of combat.
  2. Council Hall - Produces Longbowmen at 100% speed and provides access to their upgrades.

These proposals I think are less necessary to be combined as the French proposals as either on their own would result in a significant shift in how the Feudal age plays out (and is scouted by the opponent). Important to note is the English access to Men at Arms in Feudal and their strength throughout the game in addition to Longbows.

English Proposal 1 - Council Hall Redistricting

  • The Council Hall no longer produces Longbows, but provides Longbow upgrade access (Campfire/Veteran).
  • Archery Ranges built within the Council Hall District produce Longbows 20% faster per age (20/40/60).
  • (Possibly reduces cost of Longbows and/or Archery Ranges instead).

Effect: Reduces the rabbit level production of the longest range early game units while providing a scaling benefit into Imperial. Could be tweaked for other discounts/benefits, but gives a clear idea of intentions when scouted.

English Proposal 2 - Abbey of Kings
Note: This is my least confident proposal as I think there are options for reworking the Abbey of Kings into a completely different (economic?) landmark. This is a proposal similar to the theme of the current landmark.

  • Abbey of Kings no longer heals units in a radius.
  • Abbey of Kings heals units within the Network of Castles when out of combat. (King’s Grace)
  • Abbey of Kings heals +1 per 1.5 seconds each age while out of combat. (+1/+2/+3).
  • Does not stack with Longbow Campfire ability.
    For reference Villagers have 50/75 HP, Man at Arms have 120 hp at Feudal. In Feudal would take 75 seconds to heal from 1 HP for a villager, 180 for a Man at Arms.

Effect: English have the ability to survive sustained harass and extended defensive combat better, but does run the risk of being used offensively instead of defensively. Would still be sacrificing accelerated Longbow production but supports a more diverse army.


Summary:

I believe there is a TON of potential to adjust and improve the landmark system in the game, this is just an example of what could be done to provide more strategic diversity even in the early stages of the game! I would love to see a dedicated pass on Chinese, HRE and Dehli landmarks to find some more options for interesting strategies.

I don’t think any of my proposals should necessarily be copy pasted into the game this week, but instead serve as a launching point for a larger discussion around landmarks in general since they are such a key part of the game.

I chose to look at English & French landmarks as they are the most relatively simple and powerful at this stage of the game, and could be used as a precedent for bringing other landmarks for other civilizations in line with their unique strengths.

Thanks for reading and I hope this promotes some interesting discussion and maybe some ideas for the devs in the future!

19 Likes

I don’t like much your proposed solutions but I completely agree on that there is a problem and changes are needed, so upvote and hope this get discussed and hopefully fixed sooner than later.

3 Likes

Adding some other notes about landmarks and Feudal production for discussion. More examples that could potentially smooth the power spikes in the Feudal Age surrounding heavy unit production (or give some civilizations options to combat it).


Mongols

  • Ovoo stone gathering rate is reduced, but increased by the Silver Tree (existing, not nearby necessarily).
  • Deer Stones already gives a combat and economic boost with no opportunity cost to production.

Holy Roman Empire

  • Aachen Chapel now allows Prelates garrisons in outposts to inspire villagers in a radius (possibly locked by research?).
  • Meinwerk Palace decreases time to upgrade (20/35/50%) per age in addition to cost reduction. Gives infantry an additional power boost when sacrificing economy.

Potentially could reduce Emergency Repair cooldown or add additional charges as well.

Chinese

  • Imperial Academy can now build Imperial Officials. Reduces strain on early TC production.
  • Barbican of the Sun has full outpost vision range and can buy weapon emplacement.

Potentially change/reduce second landmark costs but Chinese is still being figured out right now more than most civs.

Abbasid Dynasty

  • Seems to be in a pretty good place as far as ‘landmarks’ go. Potentially adjusting time and cost of House of Wisdom upgrades or allowing an upgrade to increase the “Golden Age” radius of a building to allow tier 3 to bring achieved before endgame.

Delhi

  • Adjust Tower of Victory and several other technologies to actually work.

Rus

  • Landmarks are decent choices without being oppressive, though the Kremlin could use some help to compete. Possibly allow the Kremlin to be rebuilt on a cool down to adapt to changing woodlines? (Problematic historically though lol).

  • I think Rus is one of the best designed civs overall generally and with real choices for landmarks and is what I am using as more of an example for other civil.


Thanks for reading and I hope this can generate some interesting discussion around the legitimately cool landmark mechanic.

Extra note: I would like a counter of self/ally landmarks alongside enemies in objectives if that is going to be on the screen. Also I think there should be a timer to repair your landmarks (1 minute?) Instead of instant elimination when they are destroyed.

1 Like

Longbow as a unit doesn’t scale to imperial at all. Even if it wasn’t too weak at that point in the game, it costs too much.

The only resource you desperately need as the English in Imperial is wood, and longbows cost a lot of wood

Crossbows and handcannons cost only food and gold, the two things I’m swimming in, thanks to my golden farms.

Gee, I wonder what I’m going to build with my wood, a bombard, or 20 horsemen, or 8 longbows?

England has been fast falling down tier lists, the latest one from Beastyqt puts it behind HRE and bugged Delhi since basically the only thing the civ does is hope it wins with feudal longbows.

Really like the French landmark idea.

Instead of starting with difference bonus as a civ ,I think we can put more uniqueness of a civ into landmark Like(like unlocking knights, unlocks villager productions rate in your example), it make the landmark more important to scout, and encourage diversity, as the civ bonus itself it should be only their unique play style like (research system, bounty system, nomad system).

No, I think there is a big problem with this landmark since there is no chance of comeback for the abbasids once this landmark is destroyed.