Fire Lancer and stuff for Jurchen as a new civ

We are kind of getting off topic on that topic, for lack of a better word, so should we move the discussion here?

That seems reasonable, maybe 2 range and 0.3 tile area effect around the target? Then the normal melee attack is 1 tile range and no area of effect. Should the elite fire lancer have a 25 second cooldown instead, and maybe a 4.5 second duration of effect? Maybe take the duration for the normal one down to 3.5 seconds, but I’m not totally sure. I feel like it should also get a minor bonus against either infantry or cavalry, because it would kind of be a counter to either of those. Horses would scare pretty easily after all if you ran up, blew up a massive stream of fire in their face, and then poked them with a pointy stick.

Honestly it’s far too early to start fine-tuning such unit’s balance :wink:

True, Jurchen would make a nice civ though if it was added with this kind of stuff.

My only fear is that it would make classical unique units, those with just some stats buffs over regular units, very bland. Anyway I don’t know what list I’d give for the 9 remaining slots but the Jurchen would be on it.

Maybe, but at least it would spice up civ design a bit more.

So let’s sum up the Jurchens for now :

  • strong melee cavalry
  • strong horse archers
  • unique units : fire lancer (castle), iron pagoda (replaces the paladin, possibly with some extra effect)

How good were their foot archers and melee infantry ? Their siege abilities ?

As for their economy, their homeland is in Manchuria which is quite dry, so not giving them crop rotation would make sense.

Foot archer weren’t a huge deal I don’t think. Maybe missing Arbalester, and final archer armor/attack, but they definitely need HCA, Parthian Tactics, Thumb Ring and Hand Cannoneer. They could even be missing Elite Skirmisher, if some of the unique units had enough PA to handle archers. Their infantry would number in the thousands, so probably full barracks, but I’m not sure. For siege, they took a lot of stuff of the Han Dynasty, maybe have heavy scorpion, onager and capped ram? Also, they need BBC. I think.

wtf is Jurchen, i love how people come with ideas about civs that doesn’t have any commonfolk appeal

The Jin Dynasty of China, also known as the Jurchens.

It was the medieval term for the Manchus.

I reckon that it should be be able to deal trample damage while moving after researching a unique tech. My current idea: The Imperial Age UT is Shock Cavalry Tactics: It costs 1000F 700G, and takes 40 seconds to research. After being researched, it makes the knight line do 3 Trample damage in a 0.3 tile range to all enemy units each time it enters a new tile. The Iron Pagoda Heavy Cav does 5 damage instead.

Honestly, I feel that Jurchen’s unique unit should be some type of cavalry or horse archer. I once did a civ proposal and imagined their unique unit as a beefy but short-ranged horse archer that ignores enemy pierce armor.

We would be missing the opportunities that Fire Lancer and other stuff present. They can always have bonuses related to cav archers, and then give that kind of unit to another civ.

Oh, it’s just an unimportant civ that constructed an empire twice as large as the Holy Roman Empire and was one of the first to employ gunpowder weapons (the other civ is, of course, the Chinese). By the way, they would later conquer the entirety of China and become the Qing dynasty.


He has a point tho.civilizations in game should be easily identifiable to people.


I agree. It’s a very important point. Although…easily identifiable by whom? We already have things like Sicilians and Burgundians and Cumans, and I think all of these are pretty much in the same level in name recognition (but that’s just me).


Yes. Also, maybe it’s time we cast aside that view and allow for some new civs to come into the player view. It’s also relatively easy to pronounce, and there will be a fair few people who will have heard of it I’m sure. Also, people won’t care if it is enjoyable to play and they can say/learn the name.

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Burgundians are fine people know them as the bad guys from Joan’s campaign.Sicilians are the worst civi ever they are normans but called something else.

When first playing AOE2, how many didn’t know who the Teutons were, for example ? Then after reading their history file and starting to play the Barbarossa campaign, “medieval Germans of course !”.

Same for every civ that doesn’t have a direct modern equivalent. Looking at the original AOK list, alright for the Franks and Britons you can guess they are the French and British but the Goths ? Byzantines ? Saracens ? Teutons ? If you didn’t already know the basics in History it could have been a bit confusing.


Or the Burgundians, Berbers, and others