First Crusade Change and Serjeant Buff

so, to my understanding, first crusade is not very liked by the community as it seems off in the AOE2 environment to get insta-unit. i like the tech in the sense that is unique and adds fun options, but i get the sentiment. furthermore, seems this tech holds so much power potential that it actually holds off the serjeants as an actual unit to be trained and used. so i had this idea to propose a change to these tech, by keeping it a pretty unique thing while also buffing the actual serjeants as a result

also, elitè upgrade is just grossly overpriced at 1900, it’s just crazy expensive. So:

  • Serjeants +1 attack per stage, so feudal goes from 5 to 6, castle from 8 to 9, and imperial from 11 to 12.

  • Elitè upgrade cost reduced to from 1100 F and 800G to 1000F and 650G

  • First Crusade changed to “Chateaux Sieging Tecniques” (or whatever name, a refer to normal castles being notoriously good): “Serjeants are able to repair siege unit, castles, walls, and other defensive structures”

if its too niche, we could add “and they gain bonus damage vs siege units” to help them defend their donjons and castles, or “garrisoned serjeants in donjons and castles shoot arrows” or even “donjons get 1 more attack per arrow” or really anithing else

this would change first crusade wonkyness while giving actual strenght to the serjeants and making them carry the infantry focus of the civs that is currently non-existant, and would make for a pretty fun and unique serjeants + siege combination, for which the civ now has nothing buffing it.

for instance, even koreans or ethipians can do a better halberdier + siege push despite not being infantry civ, so at least thath would make the serjeants wery unique, justifing their high gold cost

other options to buff serjeants could be price reduction of 5/10 gold or like 5 more HP per stage, but i like attack more, since even with new units we are seeying that units with lower attack like 8 in castle age, like obuch, ghulam, urumi and the like, all have a way to deal more damage trough special abilities, so 9 attack in castle would help them not fall behind while not break anithing since their low speed and inability to pick engamenents


Sergeants repairing things is an interesting concept but too niche for an UT. Maybe sergeants could build walls and siege workshops after the UT as well?

The bonus against siege would still be niche, because you dont fight siege with sergeants.

I would make the UT buff the donjon together sergeants… for example,faster training speed + faster building speed, (or lower price for the building and for sergeant) so the first crusase is repressents sicilians recruiting troops and maki g seetlements

You can make the tech affect barracks buildings and units as well, making siciliana more of infantry civ, although this would overlap with goths

yeah as i proposed, we could add garrisoned serjeants shooting arrows, to make use of bigger garrison space, even if that would overlpa a bit with teutons, but would require a castle and a UT to get that unlike teutons

making serjeants able to build and repair siege workshop would be cool indeed

well true to an extent, for example, giving them a anti-siege bonus would make the donjons more difficult to push since in few seconds you can get a hardy unit that can fight back a ram, and they are enough tanky to tank a onager shot and reach them, so it would make for a new twist for the unit

Are you sure you want to give Viper the ability to quick-wall with Serjeants?

That is good question. Probably I dont want that, given that sicilians keep building even under attack.

Besines, sicilians already can do nasty castle drops. Unstopabble donjon drops dont sound fun.

1 Like

my proposal was just for the repair infact. building siege workshops could be cool instead, to furthr emphasize their ability to work with siege which would make for a unique composition

so “Serjeants can repair siege units, castles, walls and other defensive structures, and can build siege workshops”


i really do not know what the price of such a tech could be tough

anyway, hope to get some more feedbacks, on the UT rework and the consequent serjeants buff i proposed.

now that i think of it, first crusade rework would even nerf cavalier a bit removing conversion resistance

1 Like

I’ve wondered about making it that Serjeants can construct Siege Weapons after a UT, but I don’t know if the community would like it. Either way, I think they need their gold cost decreased by 10.

i would rather have the attack increased as i mentioned in the opening post but gold (or food) discount would do as well. it’s just “the easy way” while attack would be a tad more interesting and make the unit actually able to do damage. atm every infantry UU with 8 attack in castle have some way to deal additional damage, or just have like 10 attack or more (like woads), and 11 base in imperial is just a bit low. 6-9-12 would be much more solid

35 gold is way too high though, especially when you compare it to Obuch. I’m fine with it not dealing much damage but being tanky, but for a Donjon rush and Feudal Serjeants to be viable, it really needs to cost 25 gold. Right now, even creating 1 Serjeant costs a significant amount of food in Feudal age, and slows economic production. Coupled with the cost of Donjons, and how weak tower rushes are currently, and Serjeants aren’t very good. They should also fire arrows when garrisoned in Donjons I think.

i like the idea, this allows serjeants to repair mangos in a mango fight among other things. instead of building siege works(also a good idea), the alternative could be that using serjeants to repair uses less resources

reducing the cost of the elite tech and buffing the serjeants themselves should hopefully make them more viable as well, and with the removal of 1st crusade serjeant buffs could be justifiable

that being said i wouldnt buff sicilians until hauberk is nerfed further, or more specifically the bonus damage reduction on cavalry reduced.

since they buffed the sicilian eco, the damage reduction is no longer as pertinent as it used to be, and simply creates too many overly good matchups for them, meaning any buffs to serjeants will simply be excessive

in comparison we have the new indian civs that are all very exciting due to their dynamic playstyles requiring combined arms to win engagements, while sicilians can literally just spam 1 unit(hauberk cavalier) regardless of the situation, so long as the opponent doesnt have their own above average heavy cav, or buffed camels(even generic heavy camel is arguably game losing due to the numbers required)

1 Like

i agree on all, i would be fine even with just a -5 gold to make it in line with other infantry UU which most cost 90 res total

and yes they should shoot arrows in donjons

1 Like

hauberk has been nerfed already with 50% cost increase, and my proposal would nerf it indirectly by removing conversion resistance making monks a good counter to hauberk cavalry, but hauberk now its fine. it just affect 1 unit and the problem before was that it was just too cheap for what it brings, which is now addressed.

i don’t know why people think sicilians cavalier are immune to halberdiers… the bonus reduction is not enough to save them from halberds, which still beat them cost effectively. they handle them better than others for sure, but they still clearly are countered by them. almost any civ has halberdier or a superior cavalry, and with the first crusade rework, monk also would become a totally good counter

on serjeants yeah my goal is to remove first crusade and buff the actual unit, but the reduced elitè cost should pretty much appen for free since 1900 is just simply too much

Honestly being resistant to pierce damage, Conversions, and Bonus damage is a bit too much


Isn’t best to rework the Tech without changing what it is intended? Like instead of spawning X serjeant every Y town center, that I don’t know why they based the mechanic on this, they change to spawn a serjeant by every N game minutes passed? (with a ceiling maybe?)

This way you keep the mechanic about spawning troops for Crusade but instead of rushing TCs as fast as possible to get a cheap army you hold the Tech as a Panic button because the more you wait the more efficient it is.

Which Is infact why removing First crusade would remove the conversion resistance. Also the tech Is now way more expensive. I agree It could be even more costly but i would rather increases the research time by a bit. Point Is that Is already been nerfed and my proposal would indirectly Nerf cavalier even further. That sayd, let’s focus on First crusade First :slight_smile: (pun intended)

From my understanding, people hate the concept of spawning unit in the First Place, which i do not share, but i get that.

On another note, First crusade is a 1 time thing, which already is kinda gimmicky (you either win at that time or It does nothing) and keeps the Serjeants unit on a somewhat weakened state to compensate that. So you have a unit that you potentially could use always but can’t cause it’s not competitive, that needs to stay like that because of First crusade

Now i much rather have an actual decent unit (with -10 G cost, or +1 Attack, or + HP, or wathever) and then the unique tech being still cool and unique but less loopsided

thus why repairing siege and Castle and Building siege workshop would be awesome for me, would make a serjeants army very possible and absolutely unique, which is what i want from a slow unique unit

1 Like

You can make the UT increase training speed for donjons (and maybe building speed) so you can spam sergeats easily. Other optio. For the techs is reducing the price of donjon or sergeant.

True, and knowing that, we can think in UTs that doesnt affect sergeants because sergeant could be buffed after the UT rework.

Most of reworked UTs have been designed to supplement a civ weakness, like persian trashy trashbows, mayans better skirms for trashwars, slavs cheap castles for boyar production and sarracen trebuchets/so being a powerful unit for pushes. Even hauberk supolemented a power unit for sicilians in imperial age, which they lacked sgainst archer civs because of their tech tree

We have to think in a Ut that complements sicilians playstyle which is… Hauberk? Ok, before hauberk rework, their style was “low eco, faster TC/castle drops, better transports and resilient troops”. Those bonuses call for surpride attacks. So the UT could reinforce that identity. Also, surprise attacks compensates for their weakness which is the low eco.

Sergeants repairing siege and building siege workshops could be a nice addition for castle drops pushes but I am not sure id that is a buff for an UT… Would you build a castle only for that? Maybe if the UT buffed their building speed or allowing sergeants to fire arrows in donjons… But i am not sure.

Another controversial but historical posibility imaking the UT useful for water maps. The UT could buff their transport ships as they were before, or even upgrading the transport to something new.

If the Serjeants is actually buffed to be good on it’s own, i would totally pay for a UT that makes them combo with siege making them Building siege works and repairing siege. A Serjeant+siege push would be absolutely unique and pretty deadly (since they are tanky and repair even while attacked) so would make for a unique option to use their good siege

Currently even korean, a defensive/archer civ, can do a better infantry + siege push than sicilians, an infantry civ

1 Like

True, that’s sad