It isn’t needed when the same outcome could be achieved with far less complexity by just reducing the building cost.
Again, I am not saying the original function should be removed. The original game also didn’t have Native Embassies, they are a Warchiefs addition. Had they been in the game from the start, their function may have been different.
Decoupling native allies and trade routes would improve gameplay, that is why I’m suggesting it. Trade Posts as means of facilitating relations also does make historical sense so there’s no reason to remove it because of that. Having Native Embassies being the dual function building just happens to be realistic and conducive to better gameplay.
The idea that the embassy substitutes the TP in its function is good, but it is not necessary if the natives themselves become more useful. A passive bonus + an XP drip for example would be enough to justify an alliance.
Consulates already do passive bonuses. It would not be very difficult to implement it with native allies.
Technically, I don’t think it’s possible to build both on minor civs and on normal areas on the map, since buildings that are confined to specific locations are inherently different from common buildings.
On the other hand, Trading Post in the native village is cultural and historical reasonable.
More importantly, it’s not relevant to this thread.
There is no difference from the original gameplay basically.
No. I don’t support the idea about replacing native TP with Embassy.
It makes the gameplay more complicated without saving table space.
And, the cost issue of using natives has nothing to do with the cost of Embassy.
Let’s not discuss so many things, it’s not relevant to this thread, and it complicates the discussion.
I don’t think an experience trickle is necessary especially when that is essentially done by trade routes already.
A Consulate style passive bonus has a lot of potential and I really like that idea. It could be as simple as moving part of their effects from techs to a passive bonus. For example, allying with Cheyenne could give an immediate -5% cavalry train time and the Cheyenne Horse Trading tech could then be lowered to -20%. That would give the same overall boost, but some of it would be immediately granted, and you would need to retain control of the settlement to keep the full benefit.
We agree that Trade Posts are too expensive for the early game if you want them to grant a free Embassy wagon (basically refunding 100 wood). And obviously, we agree that Native Embassies currently cost 100 wood. We just have different solutions to the issue.
It can be a lower drip than road TPs, or monasteries/churches. It can also be a drip according to the civilization, for example:
Asians: export.
Africans: influence (In fact they already do).
Europeans and postcolonials: XP
Native Americans: A very slight bonus to the square. (as if the leaders of said tribe participated in the politics of that civilization).
I remember you said that to me but in this case we’d been addressing a universal issue (a feature that is literally unusedfor over a decade). And that is applied only to the very first alliance you make, if and only if, you decide to do it.
Ever since you expressed your concerns we had an Embassy wagon and a TP wagon, which although give many more possibilities they weren’t really crucial to those civs. We’ll be getting more and more travois and it’s a fact in a near future. I’m not sure whther we should block travois for a legitim cause such as the difficulty of starting a native alliance.
I agree that we have too many wagons (as Hausa every shipment can give 1 cow, 1 goat and 1 builder wagon ), it’s almost Lego and I’m not counting other techs.
But look at the bright side: Wagons/Travois are MUCH more balanced that simply giving crates and it opens up many more possibilites because each one becomes more specific to the civilization.
There are many legitimate uses for wagons. Their original purpose for building more exclusive buildings like Forts, Factories, and Town Centers is fine. Occasional age-up bonuses and shipments for things like Outposts and Trade Posts are also reasonable. Some of the newer mechanics like levying Rickshaws from the Chinese Immigrants cards are unique and interesting. Even an entire civ based around Travois like Haudenosaunee gets a pass for being unique. As long as their use is limited and used for something Villagers can’t easily do themselves, wagons are fine.
On the other hand, there are inexcusable instances of excess. The State Capitol building is ridiculous. Not only are all the wagons completely redundant and specific, but they are also cheaper to build than regular buildings. I can’t understand why anyone would decide that was a good thing to put in the game.
The African civs are also out of control with wagons. Every age-up Ethiopia gets a Monastery wagon and usually some other wagon from allies. Then if those buildings get destroyed, you can make yet another wagon from your Town Center to rebuild it. Hausa have a tech that gives them a wagon with every shipment and both civs can get Kingdom Builders that aren’t much better than the State Capitol. At the very least, rebuilding the unique age-up buildings could be the domain of Abuns and Griots instead of more and more wagons. It would make much more sense for an Abun to reconstruct a destroyed Jesuit Church or Indian Market rather than cluttering the Town Center with so many wagons.
In my opinion, getting a Native Embassy wagon from your first Trade Post is an unnecessary use of wagons and it is inconsistent with every other way of obtaining them. If a Native Embassy is really necessary it could be added into the perks of a card like Native Treaties to ship an Embassy wagon in addition to allied soldiers. Also in this case there is a better solution of just using a cheaper building to establish alliances or giving additional passive benefits to native alliances like the Consulate does.
Yep, I think they wanted something unique and useful and ended up being like that. There is no reason that building should be a Ford Facility.
Funny enough I always had this extra effect for the “Native Lore” card (the one that makes coin cost zero). This one or “Native Embassy cost changed to zero” and the “Native Learning” card (the one that makes every tech 50% cheaper) would make Embassy cost half too.
But even so I don’t feel a travois for the first alliance would hurt
The suggestion for Native Lore that I like the most is for it to also swap the wood cost for naive units with coin. That would take it from being a trash card to actually pretty good and a way to make natives a lot more viable. It could be very powerful when combined with the Mapuche Ad-Mapu tech. I also think this is a perk that could make a lot of sense as an additional effect for the Mowhawk Statesman politician.
Native Treaties shipping units not just for current alliances, but also for future alliances once they are established would be a good improvement to make its timing a little less critical.
Blood Brothers could also set your alliance status to active for multiple native factions and then synergize with the Native Treaties card.
Native Learning also enabling researching native upgrades at Embassies would make a lot of sense too. If a passive bonus to native alliances were introduced, this upgrade could possibly make the bonus permanent even if you lost control of the Trade Post.
The most elegant solution to native Trade Post viability would probably be giving them a passive bonus like Consulate allies. It could even be things shifted from their existing techs (for example, the Cheyenne Horse Trading tech gets reduced to -20% time reduction but just allying with Cheyenne gives an automatic -5% cavalry train time). Bonuses that are immediate and free for the duration of the alliance could justify the cost of an early Trade Post.