Fixing Delhi

This guy has no idea what he is talking about and sounds like a thirteen year old lol, china can get 4x production on there buildings lmao

That is the point I wholeheartedly agree with you, but the problem stems from elephants not being considered as siege units. The XBow buff was needed against knights.

When they proposed that the time requirements would scale up through the ages in the closed beta we assumed it would scale gradually (3x into 4x into 5x into 6x), so I guess they probably wanted to prevent the player spamming buildings, researching everything fast and then having nothing to research afterwards.

Now you have to prioritize and are on a more equal footing against other civs (which kinda goes against the civ identity; research should be their absolute strength).

Delhi has mostly bugs holding them down though (honed blades has imp multiplier, landmarks don’t work etc.), and their landmark bonuses don’t fit as neatly together as french or mongolian landmarks.

If elephants were considered as siege units, elephants would be OP. You need to be able to counter them with spears. IMO they need more armor (especially pierce) so you need a lot more xbows to bring them down and MAA aren’t cost effective. Elephants should be hard countered by massed spears and decent numbers of springalds. They should be soft countered by very large numbers of xbows. Archers, cavalry (not sure about camels), and MAA should not trade cost effectively against elephants at all. So xbows are way too good, and MAA are slightly too good atm (elephants do pretty well vs MAA, but I believe MAA are cost effective, which is just absurd on its face).

You realize with x15 you need something like 20+ scholars to get the same research time as other civs, not even considering bugs? It’s crazy. Plus if you’re going for the elephant producing age 4 landmark you need 4 scholars there to get a reasonable production rate. If you’re going to use efficient production at all you need scholars for that. And every one of those guys takes up pop space. I agree 9 scholars before was probably too little, but something like 7-8x would be more appropriate. Going from 5x to 15x is just stupid. Particularly if say you need to build your keeps or your docks away from your area of influence. Spend a ton more resources and give up at least 10 more pop. Massive, massive nerf. Plus it flies in the face of the very idea of the Hisar Academy if you want to go that direction.

What’s mostly holding Delhi down isn’t bugs (though the current bugs are significant). It’s design. They don’t have a strong eco or military bonus for early-mid feudal age, a truly fast castle isn’t really viable at the moment, they don’t have any unique siege bonus in a siege heavy meta, and their unique unit is directly countered by xbow+siege in castle and imp, which is the standard meta at the moment (note their other major bonus, +3 attack to MAA and lancers, is also basically countered by xbows and siege). If elephants don’t cause your opponent to do something different, what’s the point of elephants?

I’d like them to be considered as self defending rams; springalds and gunpowder should be their counter.
The large hitboxes of elephants make them easy to be encircled by spears anyway, so I dislike the idea of them being countered by a trash unit that they can’t get away from unlike cavalry. You have to make them a viable choice, otherwise you will always prefer knights due to their mobility.

Is the other player able to research every imp tech at once? The devs probably kept in mind that your enemy can’t build more buildings to research everything at once since any other civ won’t have the resources for that.

As I said, 15x seems to high for me as well, but I didn’t test a strategy handling it since I won’t touch the game again until the resource exploit is fixed.

True, it should be buffed to account for the rebalance.

Agree with your last part, landmarks and counter options need to be improved.

Maybe it’s hard to tell because can’t hear tone over all this.

My face while posting about the Delhi changes and bugs:

How I feel while posting about the Delhi changes and bugs:

What is your gamertag @RashEquation114 , I’d like to see and learn from this delhi player by watching your past game recordings.

What if Delhi could research all tech in dark age with the current research times? So you could start an imperial technology that will take 25+ mins right away if you choose to do so.

This would make this faction truly unique and fun with many different playstyles. It would also fit their theme of being research centric. And It’s still balanced because you need to age up to get access to buildings and the research durations are very long.

I can think of two difficulties:

  1. Why would I age up at all then? Delhi Landmarks are not so good.
  2. How can the enemy see what I have researched? Currently, if your opponent reaches imp, you can prepare for the use of imperial units and technologies. With your solution you won’t see at a glance why you lose engagements when both players are in castle age.
  1. you still need access to al buildings or you could use just baracks as only military building forever.

  2. It’s definitely more important to keep track of research of your opponent when he is delhi. Which is fine.

You underestimate how strong armor and attack upgrades are.
Having archers with +2/+2 upgrades vs +1/+1 would be game breaking.

Basically every game would be about building multiple blacksmiths to research attack and defense upgrade as fast as possible.

My test found that you need more scholars to reduce the research time. You can check the table. If you want to reduce the research time to be the same as the other civ, how many scholars you should garrison in Mosques, how much resources it will cost and how much producing time it will take.

(The landmark is Dome of the Faith)

Scholar pop Gold Cost Gold cost by landmark Producing time by landmark (min) Wood cost (Mosques)
Age1 Tech 10 1500 750 7.5 600
Age2 Tech 12 1800 900 9 600
Age3 Tech 15 2250 1125 11.25 750
Age4 Tech 55 8250 4125 41.25 2850

We found not only resources but also population. The scholar will occupy the population! So you cannot only calculate how many resources the Delhi saved. Producing a lot of scholars is stupid.

If relic feel that it is too hard to balance the Delhi bonus, you can rework it.

I have some suggestions. Because I love the Tier design like the Mongol, Rus, and Abbasid. Maybe we can design a Scholar Culture by garrisoning the scholars to unlock the Tier to give some bonuses.

  1. Scholar Culture can reduce the cost of Tech and auto heal unit when out of combat based on the Tier by garrisoning the scholars within the influence of Mosque instead of the original bonuses of free tech and lower research speed.

  2. Dome of the Faith: Unlock the Tier 4 of the Scholar Culture instead of the original function. The original function is too useful. Unlocking the Tier 4 is not useful in early game but great in late game. The Tower of Victory can gain the attack speed of infantry to counter opponent in early and mid game. (But I’m not sure why this landmark cannot gain the speed of MAA? It’s a bug or balance?)

  3. Efficient Production: Increases the attack of military units based on the Tier of the Scholar Culture instead of the original function within the influence of Mosques.

  4. Sanctity: Increases the gold generation of relic and sacred site based on the Tier of the Scholar Culture instead of the original function.

  5. All-Seeing Eye: Increases the sight range of military units based on the Tier of the Scholar Culture instead of the original function.

  6. Swiftness: Increases the movement speed of military units based on the Tier of the Scholar Culture instead of the original function.

  7. Zeal: Increases the attack of military units based on the Tier of the Scholar Culture instead of the original function.

  8. Hisar Academy: Generates Food based on the Tier of the Scholar Culture instead of the original function.

  9. Palace of the Sultan: Produces Tower War Elephants and the producing time is based on the Tier of the Scholar Culture instead of the original function.

Scholarly Culutre Scholar pop Gold cost Wood
Reduce the cost of Tech Auto Healing gold generation of Relic and Sacred Site Reduce the producing time of military increase military attack increase military movement speed increase military sight
Tier 1 1 150 150 -10% 1HP/s 10% -10% 1% 1% 10%
Tier 2 5 750 300 -20% 2HP/s 20% -20% 2.50% 2.50% 20%
Tier 3 10 1500 600 -30% 3HP/s 50% -25% 5% 5% 30%
Tier 4 20 3000 1050 -40% 4HP/s 100% -50% 10% 10% 40%

Top players thought the Delhi is just the B Tier civ in the old patch because they can capture the sacred sites in age 2. But in the new patch, they become the E Tier. In age 2, they don’t have MAA, Longbowmen, or early Knight. They don’t have defensive landmark to protect them. In age 3, the elephant will be killed by Springald. The Springald can kite the elephant you know? In age 4, elephants are nothing. You can deal with this target by Springald, Bombard, Handcannoneer. They don’t have the strong units like the Chinese or Rus. You can watch the Viper video testing the elephants vs other units. Elephants cannot counter a lot of units by the same resources. They are too expensive and less attack efficiency. The Tower War Elephant cannot upgrade by a lot of Tech. It’s a bug but relic didn’t want to fix it?

I suggest another idea. Delhi can build the Stone Wall in age 2 but lower building speed (2x)

Compound of the Defender: Reduces Stone cost of buildings and their emplacements by 25%. Increases the building speed of the Stone Wall. The infantry can build the Keeps.

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Delhi scholar system should always feel like a civ bonus rather than a hindrance it is currently, something the recent patch has failed to address and in fact made worse. let’s make Delhi players feel great about having it and be a real advantage before addressing any other of balance concern.

buff the tech scaling to 2x at age 1, 3x at age 2, 4x at age 3 and 5x at age 4.

and let’s say research benefits are capped at 15 scholars at a rate of 5% reduction per scholar for a 75% reduction cap.

it will be a sizeable buff to the early game for example only requiring 2x as long to get wheelbarrow for free without a scholar, while ramping up slowly as you age up. this way the desire for more scholars will feel more natural over the course of the game rather than frontloaded early on and feel like a true bonus for the civ rather than something you must mitigate. this will also result in players feeling free to use scholars in combat and in military buildings earlier in the game.

from there if Delhi is weak or strong, we can balance them around a satisfying scholar system.

It’s too strong to just need 15 scholars to que standard timing Imperial researches that cost everyone else 1000 resources a piece. Let’s do the math. 14*150g + 200w=2300 res. This to build the the 1 free mosque plus free scholar then 2 additional mosques then 14 more scholars at full price. Now you have the ability to tech everything Imperial for free at 90s each and basically most of them in parallel!!! That’s a hugee power spike. Let’s add up all the land Imperial delhi technologies: 2 in barracks 4 in blacksmith 3 in archer range 3 in stable 3 economy buffs and 6 in university (correct me if I’m wrong). So that’s 21 techs that would cost a regular civ 1000 a piece!! And you can potentially que all if them at once in parallel and have them all come in with 90 seconds? For just 2k resources?? That’s what balance looks like to you? You’d be saving upwards of 18k resources in a span of 90 seconds!!!

Let me belabor this saving a lil more. Assume an Imperial villager can gather optimally 60 resources per min. If we took that 18,000 resources and divide that by 10mins you get a resources per min of 1800 res/min then divide that by the 60res/min/vil and you’d need 30!!! Villagers gathering optimally for 10 minutes to get 18k res??

I think a fair Imperial scholar requirement to get regular research rates should be 25 scholars which mean you can actually get by with 15 at about double the rate but have multiple research facilities.

Research times imo should be
Dark: 2.5x
Feudal: 3x
Castle: 5x

not only have they increased the multiplier, they have reduced the amount of reduction each scholar does to research.

if they make WE more weak than they already are in this patch for the sake of make it, will change nothing,
WE uses 3 population spaces, that is a lot, if you put royal knights from france, 3 royal knights from france have far more weight than one war elephant for a lot of reasons that i’m lazy to explain and those 3 combinated are cheaper than one WE. So reduce cost is welcome, but at the price of nerf it dont make sense.

As another user said, is not only about resources, you need pay attention to it, schoolars cost space, your buildings need to stay together, its a lot of resources to you do it even in one eventual castle age boomed and in his example techs will get more time to be completed than normal civs anyway. And the most important thing of all, time is one important resources in RTS games, its a big mistake say that is for free if that cost you some more time than other civs.

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You can only garrison 3 scholars per mosque. So you need 4 more mosques, not 2. Not a huge impact on overall resources, but total is 2500 not 2300. One other thing to note is you never actually make good use of all those techs. You might get them all (because you can), but in practice (if you only got the ones you were using like other civs do) you should probably drop your cost savings by 30-50%. Also keep in mind the scholars take up pop without generating resouces. So if instead of investing 75-150g on each of 14 scholars (that take up 15 pop) you do 50f for each of 15 vills over the course of the preceding ages you’re going to gain resources from those vills which further reduces the discrepancy. It’s not quite as straightforward as you imply. If you need 25 scholars to get reasonable resource times, that’s 25 pop lost, whereas another civ (especially one with other eco bonuses or discounted villagers) might actually get more benefit from making 25 vills that cost less to produce in the first place.

There is undoubtedly an eco bonus associated with free techs and scholars, but it’s not as extreme as you imply. And Delhi don’t really have any other strong eco bonuses aside from double gold sacred sites (if you can hold them) and the Hisar Academy (only applies to imp). The major benefit to the scholar system is allowing rapid tech switching since you just get all the techs anyway. I don’t actually think it’s out of line with the other civ bonuses when you consider the above.

In fact, I don’t think the scholar system alone is enough. Delhi still need an elephant buff and something to help with Feudal age (the dark age sanctity strategy was filling this void before).


yeah, this civ was considered the worst civ for many people before the patch, now they are unplayable, was exactly what i meant, thats why i was expecting one buff, not a nerf.

sharpening the focus on tower of victory, compound of the defender and infantry fortifications.

by default infantry can build stone defenses including keeps.

tower of victory now improves the and movement and attack speed of all melee units near mosques and scholars by a large amount. no longer permanent.

compound of the defender now converts the cost of all emplacements to wood. half of defensive structure stone costs converted to wood as well.