For a historically more accurate and fun Argentine revolution

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
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It’s no secret that developers have trouble balancing grenadier type units and that’s why I feel it’s necessary to make this topic. I think the Argentine revolution needs to be completely rethought and changed to adapt to both current revolutions and to be more historically accurate.

Obviously I’ll take some creative liberties to make it a fun revolution, but coherent and balanced as much as possible.

Let’s start with the most elementary changes.

When you revolutionize with Argentina, the colonists should become gauchos, which, as we currently know them, are dragons with adequate performance for what the revolution was, but in my opinion their only use should be only a mounted colonist specialized in livestock and with the ability to defend themselves. (same as any colonist)

My proposal is to change their role to be only a replacement for the colonist, keeping their speed of 7 and their bola attack that slows, but losing their role as a military unit. They can still defend themselves, but by gaining the Villager, Economic and light cavalry tag, it may not be the most advisable although it would still be possible. For practical purposes, their bonus is movement speed and they could collect from cattle at a base speed of 8.

Unlike other revolutions, the Argentine revolution would guarantee a limit of 100 (80 + 20 = 100) for cows and sheep, in addition to enabling the creation of cows on a basic basis without the need for a card.

Obviously this is more than enough to cover the food costs of the revolution and is just to emphasize the country’s cattle history.

Another feature of the revolution is that it has immigrant cards, but unlike the “American” cards, these can be sent twice and have two different effects.

Below I give my ideas for these cards, which I think would be suitable for this iteration of the revolution.

Argentine Creoles.
When sent for the first time: Removes Mills and Plantations; enables the construction of haciendas and sends 4 hacienda construction carts. If the player had any mills or plantations built, they are destroyed, this card cancels the production of soldiers from the haciendas and increases the construction limit of the same by 6.

When sent for the second time: Enables the Spanish cards Hand Cavalry Hitpoints, Cavalry Combat and Hand Cavalry Attack in the metropolis; these cards now cost 500 wood and gold to be sent.

Italian Immigrants.
When first sent: Allows Lombards to be built, sends 4 Lombard construction wagons; increases Lombard limit to 8.

When second sent: Enables the Italian cards Usury, Advanced Lombards and Schiavoni Swords in the metropolis; Now these shipments cost 750 gold to send.

French Immigrants.
When first sent: Settlers collect 10% more from all sources except livestock.

When second sent: Enables the French cards, Gribeauval System, Flying Battery and Engineering School, for the hometown; these cards now cost 1000 wood to send.

German Immigrants.
When first sent: Hero type units gain 150% health and damage; outlaw Landsknecht can now be trained in barracks, Galleons/Galleass, bar, fortresses and Lombards.

When second sent: enables the “German” Advanced Arsenal, Castramentation and Riding School cards for the metropolis; these cards now cost 500 food to send.

It should be noted that this iteration of the Argentine revolution lacks the infinite shipments of fortresses, revolutionaries, and gatling guns. I also intend to maintain the idea of ​​a cavalry and artillery revolution, even if this requires me to take creative liberties such as some of the effects of these cards I proposed.

In addition to the above cards, the Argentine revolution should have its flagship units and for obvious reasons keep up with the new revolutions that have so enchanted the entire community. For this reason I want to propose the following cards that also enable the training of these Argentine units.

Patrician Regiment. (new skin for this unit) :pray:
Effect: When this card is sent, guerrilla units automatically upgrade to Patricians (equivalent to the Guard-level guerrilla upgrade + 10% health and damage) and gain the Skill Promotion ability. (Additional range and faster attack speed).

Mounted Grenadier Regiment. (Same skin)
Effect: Sends 20 Mounted Grenadiers (revolutionary equivalents to the mercenary elmeti) and allows them to be trained in Stables, Forts and Galleons/Galleass; enables the imperial upgrade of this unit but does not research it and increases its cost by 100%; cost 1810 of gold. (this unit replaces the Spanish lancer if the latter is trainable)

Infernales Regiment. (new skin for this unit) :pray:
Effect: Upgrades the dragoon to infernal (basically dragons with bolas) and sends 20 infernals; enables the imperial upgrade of this unit and increases the infernal’s firing speed by 10%; cost 1500 of gold.

It should be noted that for balance reasons these units maintain their population and resource costs identical to their European counterparts, except for the mounted grenadier, which costs 3 population and 150 food and gold.

Below I would like to propose some cards that I think could be kept or added to the deck.

Self-explanatory and already in the deck.

Blandengues (Keep)
Land Grab (Keep)
Stockyards (Keep)
Caballeros (Keep)
Trattoria (Keep)
3 Mortars (inf) (Keep)
20 Outlaw Band (inf) costs 1,000 coin (modified)
10 Garrochistas (inf) (modified)
San Martin (Keep) costs 1,200 coin
20 Semi-Fattened Cows (Inf) (New)
Liberation March (New)
Barbacoa (New)
Argentine Mortars (Keep)
Royal Mint (New)

New and complex.

Presidential Cavalry.
Effect: Hussars and Uhlans can be upgraded to Imperial.

Monastery artillery/Artilleria Monasterio.
Effect: Allows you to upgrade your artillery to Imperial, but upgrades cost 50% more.

Lautaro Lodge. (team)
Effect: Every revolution gains 2 shipments to spend and gains a General with the ability to build fortresses, detachments and medical camps. The General has the inspiring flag ability that increases the attack speed of your own or allied infantry units in its area of ​​effect by 10%. (Two flags together do not increase beyond 10%)

I think these changes would result in a comparatively more historically correct Argentine revolution that maintains its essence of being a cavalry, artillery and livestock revolution, while making it more fun to use. I also want to point out that I was tempted to use the Soldier as a replacement for the Musketeer, but between the fact that this revolution already has a very expensive unit (the Mounted Grenadier) and the fact that I strongly believe that this unit should be used to improve the Peruvian revolution, I decided to do without it.

I should point out that I also tried hard not to add new buildings or mechanics and tried to use what would make the developers’ job easier; at most I would like them to give us skins for the unique units of the revolution, but I am aware that even that can be complicated.

I want it to be clear that this proposal is a set and I thought it to be strong in cavalry and artillery, if this Argentine revolution is allowed to grow and boom without interruptions for a long time, it is designed to forcefully punish the passivity of the opponent, but at the same time At the same time, this revolution could not compete with an imperial economy, whether of supremacy or treaty, so it should not represent any problem in any game mode.

I think my proposal is balanced and in the worst case scenario you could always add or increase the cost of some card to compensate, so it is very easy to solve any potential imbalance, although I doubt it exists.

Thank you for reading and I apologize if any sentence in any language sounds wrong, let’s agree that the translator is not perfect and my spelling even less so. :rofl:

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More historically accurate?

Give me a break you’re just stealing things from Wars of Liberty. People have no shame these days.

Not only there is no point to replacing the Lances the Granaderos have with Sabres, you’re actively missing the point of why San Martin founded the regiment in the first place. San Martin studied in Europe and realized how the criollos looked down on lancers cuz it was the weapon of the “indigenous” even though they were much more practical, useful for the battlefield and easier to acquire in the Rio de la Plata than the Sabres, and they weren’t used only due to the criollos looking down on them. The regiment were meant to be lancers since its inception.

Presidential Bodyguards? I mean why, or more accurately who, you already have the Granaderos, unless you want the Escolta Libertad, but that’s a thing from Rosas time, why’d you want to make a deep cut as that when everything else is built around the independence war, it’s bizarre.

Presidential Cavalry? Literally what is this making reference to. When has that term ever been used, nevermind for a unit that’s separate from the Granaderos or at least the President’s Bodyguard.

Artisanal Artillery. You mean the Monasterio cannons? I think a few guns were cast in the interior, but the only notable ones, afaik, are the Monasterio ones, which weren’t more or less artisanal than those made in Spain. Why’d you want to make this shipment and not just call them, well, Monasterio Mortars or whatever.

Like I know why you’re doing this. All of these things were lifted straight from Wars of Liberty. Except they were meant to be generic features to be used across the continent, it completely falls apart when you intend to purpose them as “unique” argentine things.

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It could be that the grenadier is like the Death Hussar, that it is an upgrade of the Spanish lancer, when you revolt your lancers are upgraded to mounted grenadiers. They would have the same stats as a guard lancer, but with a siege attack with grenades, and obviously the grenadier skin.

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I completely disagree with you and I will tell you my reasons respectfully, this game deserves more impact and historical setting, the fact that several users here share these types of suggestions only means one thing and that is the fact that we all want the revolutions to be well represented from the point at which at this point they should all take as their starting point the French revolution which is the most complete and the one that is best represented historically, to this day all the revolutions have quite a few historical impressions and they all lack of cards and unique content which is unfair, why give everything to a single revolution and even less value all the others to the point of making them useless and incoherent?, whether the mod wars of liberty is taken as a basis or not All the revolutions and pay close attention, all of them must have the same treatment and the same criteria as the French revolution so that there is a good balance of revolutions for all the base civilizations. Honestly, it does not seem viable to me to leave the revolutions as they are half finished, The fair thing is to finish all the revolutions correctly so that all users can use them happily and without any content restrictions.

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I agree with you, like you I also want the revolutions to be updated to the point where they feel just as complete as the French revolution, it is only fair that all revolutions are given the same treatment of cards and units unique as it was given to revolutionary France, thus we would have more faithful and historically correct revolutions than the current ones which lack content and unique units

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I think it’s a good suggestion my friend

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Totally not confusing and convoluted at all. Thankfully the secondary effects aren’t also totally OP…

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Curious, I remember hearing you complaining that the mounted grenadiers used lances in this game and I know that San Martin considered the sabre to be one of the best weapons for cavalry, why would you give lances to this regiment based on the French gendarmes?

Ironically, the only thing I copied from WOL, at least consciously. The reason is to take the archaic Spanish lancer aspect out of the game and give the revolution more variety in cavalry units.
I consider it creative license, but I’m open to more historically correct alternatives, if you’re willing to provide them. After all, I know you’re working on creating an Argentine civilization mod and I’m more than willing to listen to corrections from a history teacher.

That card proposal wasn’t meant to give the artillery something unique, so I opted to just give it a generic name. I wanted the named cards to add something unique, but I guess it would be acceptable to give it the name of monastery artillery.

I’m going to edit it, but only because of what you’re asking for.

As I mentioned before, the only thing I got out of WOl was the idea of ​​the Ecoltas, at least consciously, I also don’t know the Argentine civilization from that mod well enough to avoid using similar or identical ideas. After all, the history of Argentina is always the same, so this type of coincidences will always appear, I wish I had the level of knowledge of a history teacher, but as you can understand my knowledge about the history of my country is quite limited.

I would appreciate it if you could provide less WOListic alternatives to replace what you find too ahistorical, although I would ask that you maintain the original spirit of this proposal, after all I thought of it as a whole and that complicates very drastic changes in how it would be played.

PS: The first effect of the German Immigrants card is in reference to Don Pedro de Mendoza’s 300 Landsknecht, I clarify this because thematically it is the first or second card that should be sent and I would prefer it to be kept.

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Thanks, I tried to make it a revolution similar in quality to the French Revolution, I wish all revolutions had that same level of detail and care.

PS: I heard that some of the current developers are modders of the Napoleonic Wars mod of AOE3 Original, I’m not surprised by the care and love they put into that revolution, I wish they would be encouraged to do the same with all possible revolutions.

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In fact I hope the same :slightly_smiling_face:

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Do you think the first effect of the immigrant cards is OP? The effects are mostly for the late game and not very useful in supremacy unless your opponent is excessively passive, I don’t think it’s OP, in any case I think they are fine for the new context of the revolution.

If you are worried about it in team games, between the need to readjust the economy and the large number of cards that need to be sent added to the cost in resources, I think they would not represent a problem unless the opposing team decided to play the game as if it were a city builder.

PS: It is not mentioned, because I took it for granted, but houses need to be built to expand the population, this revolution does not give you free population, perhaps that was what worried you.

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Me complaining about the Grenadiers using Lances? Huh, maybe from a gameplay perspective. I know I put the San Lorenzo card in WoL 5 years ago so I’ve known they used lances for at least that long. The French Gendarmes used Lances as well after all.

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Yes, I seem to remember that it was a topic that Clymore created, I said that the mounted grenadier could be a gendarme or Helmeti/Lancer type unit. I seem to remember that you also commented against it and since I know that you are a history teacher, I took your opinion into account, in fact I later mentioned (although I don’t remember if it was in the same topic) that I mentioned Helmeti/Lancer for gameplay. (this was to avoid what at the time I thought would be misinforming)

In addition to the above, as far as I understand, the mounted grenadier, like all grenadier units, used all kinds of weapons depending on what was needed. These weapons could be sabres, lances and rifles, so I don’t know their main weapon. At most I know that San Martin considered the sabre to be one of the best weapons for cavalry and it is assumed that the mounted grenadier is based on the French gendarmes, a unit that is in the game.

All factors pointed to sabers, not lances, but hey if it were up to me the mounted grenadier could switch weapons to any of the three mentioned above.

Crazy idea. :crazy_face:
The mounted grenadier faces infantry, switches to lancer stance, loses damage, but gains a multiplier vs. infantry and the lancer tag. Faces cavalry, switches to rifle combat mode (I kind of say rifle, but I don’t know the name of the weapon), gains a multiplier vs. cavalry, Combat vs. artillery, picks up the saber and gains increased base damage and a multiplier vs. artillery.

When I first played the mod, it was still called War of the Triple Alliance, after that I got bored of the game and left it for a long time, when I tried that mod again I couldn’t access all the civilizations and it bored me quickly because some of my opponents didn’t do anything during the whole game and the Argentine houses seemed horrible and unsightly to me. (personal opinion) I tried it this year and left it because it seemed archaic compared to AOE3DE.

What I mean by this is that I’m not deep enough into that mod to know whether or not I’m using anything that was implemented in it, and while I don’t consider salvaging concepts or units from that mod to be a bad thing, I prefer to avoid it, so any resemblance tends to be mere coincidence.

PS: With some exceptions, like in this case the Escolta, although I already said why I chose to borrow this concept.

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I mean yeah gameplaywise they should use, well, grenades. I probably argued against them being lancers not because they weren’t historically but because they’d be even more busted than they already were.

I am someone who studied history but that doesn’t mean I’m necessarily someone who’s an expert on Argentine military history, I’ve just been reading a lot about it lately.

I recommend the Huellas de Sangre channel since they do a lot of research on the battles they cover and the background to them.

At any rate, it’s not so much that I’m arguing sabres are wrong as it is that the lances are not wrong. They were the weapons they used, particularly on their most famous engagement.

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Originally (early AOE3DE) my proposal was that the mounted grenadier could be gameplay-wise equivalent to the helmeti. If what you are saying is correct, then I think I should edit this proposal accordingly.

Thanks for providing information and I wish you luck with your MODs, I’ll be waiting for you to finish the Latin culture civilizations.

Edit: I also removed the Escort because with this change it becomes a redundant unit.

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