Foundation scouting should not be a thing

agreed. seeing pro players use this blatant exploit is always super disappointing. especially when they are such great players - they dont need to cheat.
do you want to know if your enemy is taking that gold? scout it properly
using this exploit is definitely super lame. I consider its use to be cowardly.
even worse is when players will just paint a huge area with palisade foundations, but I havent seen a pro player do that before. hopefully never do.
Get rid of this bug and you’ll start to see more exciting and sneaky plays at high level, as well as more actual proper scouting.
I have similar thoughts about the mangonel/onager delete - yes it takes a bit of skill (although not much really if all you have to do is press delete at the right time), but it’s still stupid and makes no sense that the projectile fired suddenly no longer has to answer to the disadvantage associated with firing uphill.
It’s just unfortunate these stupid bugs weren’t removed early because now too many coward players use them and they’d kick up a stink if they got fixed.
it doesnt help when a popular (perhaps the most popular with aoe2) streamer supports the exploit. referring to it as a ‘feature’. IDDQD in original doom is a feature too… keep your cheating to single player.

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hahaha must be true because you said so! there is absolutely no reason to have it in game except “it has always been there” its like someone finds a wall bug which has existed for 10 years, we shouldnt remove it “because its always been there” and “everyone can do it so its not bad” wtf kind of logic is that?

it is literally a GAME BUG in other RTS games…

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I agree with your suggestion, for me the bug doesnt very important but is annoying when even the pro player use, its promote that you know the action of enemy and lose essence of the game that is the surprise and strategy

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This is already for so long into the game. I think we must accept it as ‘feature’ and not as ‘bug’.

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This is the solution

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go on complaining. It’s so long in the game that it has become an actual skill to gain scouting input over it (this is the big difference to the bug nonsence you mention). As said it’s neither bad nor good, it’s simply part of the game and should stay like this. There is absoluetly no need to change anything and create new actual bugs.
Building scouting is also just a thing of the top 1%, the rest 99% doesnt even have the time to think about such things and it probably also doesnt make sence to it for them, it’s way better for them to manage their economy better/focus on microing units. I don’t think you are part of that 1% or speak for them, so why do you even brother about it.

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Can you explain me why knowing about an exploit is a skill?

Scouting information should come from units

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you try to do it very quickly over an area that is as large as possible and you have to insta notice if it turns red/something is unbuildable. Every moment you waste with this is costly time wasted, that you dont use for microing units/eco/thinking about strategy. Keep in mind it’s still very easy to not spot something, or miss out something. It only really pays off, if you do it 100% correctly with full attention (thats also why it’s only relevant for the top 1%). It’s more of a skill than it might seem at the begining.

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I’ve heard even Pro players saying it’s stupid.

It feels wrong to me, especially considering that in the latest AOM patches, an issue related to that got fixed.

It should not be part of the game, like repairing from a tile distance etc.

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as said this is a very basic game mechanic in the game, just accept it’s like that and it’s fine. This is aoe2 and not AOM, AOM is a quite different game mechanic wise from an aoe2 player’s perspective. Some ppl have the wish of auto-queueing for vills. Making vills is a skill and just because AOM has autoqueue aoe2 doesnt need to be like AOM.
Also give names for your “pro players” and not just “source(s): dude trust me”. Close to every pro player will also say, that it’s simply part of the game for so long, became an actual skill and it feels wrong to put it away.

Comparing an exploit with automation? Are you serious?

Ask on Viper’s next stream what he thinks about it. It’s an exploit, not a feature.

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Just because an issue has been around for a long time, that doesn’t mean it is not a problem which should be fixed.

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It’s quite simple: if the top 1% would have a major problem with this, then for sure would either make a topic/use discord and ask for a change. This is not the case, since it is considered to be a an actual skill, it’s neither bad nor good, simply part of the game. I don’t think the ppl that wont to push a change here are able to actually use this ingame or represent the 1% that does it.

Also to ppl claiming this is a bug, no that’s not the case, just see scripter64’s (head of UP team):

Oh, it isn’t a bug, as the scanning is working exactly as ES intended, in order to help players know where they can place building foundations. However, the use of it for monitoring scouted terrain was likely unintended. Quote of my previous post:

It might be possible with enough time and research to disable palisade scanning. However, the question is would losing the ability to verify placement by scanning be a good thing for the game overall.

I can imagine situations at the casual level, in particular, where a player might take 5 villagers, drop their resources at a camp (now 5 idles), and then send them to build a castle on a hill in the fog. With a bit of lag, they won’t be able to see the foundation appear immediately, so they might just assume it’s ok and go to replant some farms at home. After being distracted defending their town for a minute, they go to check the hill and see no castle, with their builders either still idling at home or lost to a bombard tower forest on the hill for no reason, depending on how the fix is implemented.

This would likely be very disorienting for both new and experienced players, who won’t be able to trust the placement system and would need to wait, watching the hill to ensure that the castle foundation actually appears as expected. With the current system, if you click to place a foundation and hear your villager’s builder voice message, even if you don’t see the foundation, you know it’s 99% sure to be placed.

On a separate note, since the black area cannot be used to scan, players must explore the terrain in order to take advantage of it, which increases the incentive to thoroughly scout. Scouting the area outside town becomes a more useful skill, not just to find resources, chokepoints, and elevations, but to enable the use of the player’s “time/attention resource” to scan for targets.

This scanning is fairly micro-intensive, as well, and it’s very easy to miss the red flash when quickly scanning large areas of terrain. In other words, the cost to scan is both scouting time and player attention diverted from other tasks, with no guarantee of finding anything, so scanning isn’t free and players must thoughtfully consider when it might be strategically useful to take advantage of their earlier scouting commitment. By removing this ability, one more point of micro skill differentiation and decision making is lost.

Finally, since this code is currently working exactly as ES intended and there is no clear code bug, it’s out of scope by default as a gameplay change. If this is to change, there would need to be near complete agreement that the system designed by ES is broken. Sorry for the trouble!

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It’s quite simple: if the top 1% would have a major problem with this, then for sure would either make a topic/use discord and ask for a change.

I remember Viper clearly saying that he thinks this should be removed from the game in his streams in the past. Feel free to go ask him.

If you think this affects only top 1%, then why do you care? You are not a pro player as far as I know. Thus, this changes nothing to you, if things are really like you say.

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I think this is the perfect solution. It should behave exactly in accordance with how you last saw it, and the behaviour should only become different when you directly observe it again.

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I can say the same, like the laming topic, if it affects pros and they’re the ones complaining I don’t see why we’re the one complaining if it doesn’t affect most of our games. Pros can look after themselves and have their special way of communication. I don’t get this mindset of removing things that exploit game engine mechanics, if it is skill based and isn’t outright gambreaking, then its fairplay.

First of all, using exploits is cheating and you can be banned for it. But people seem to be getting away with it without being banned, even when they publish video evidence of themselves using the exploit. When you have rules that aren’t enforced, it benefits cheaters and hurts the relative performance of people who play by the rules, with the rules including that you are not permitted to use exploits.

Secondly, a major part of the game is that it is to a large extent grounded in reality. It’s not a sci-fi or fantasy game, it’s trying to follow genuine real world logic where possible. I say “to a large extent” because obviously it has to deviate from this to some extent in the interests of compelling game mechanics, but there is a lot about the game that does make sense in real world terms. The fog of war is part of this grounding in real world behaviour, but foundation scouting completely breaks this by allowing you to obtain information that should not be available to you.

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I agree with you, it’s not unfair. It’s merely an exploit which has been around forever. If some of you like this tactic, maybe because scouting is a pain, maybe because you got used to it and don’t want to lose it as an option…it’s fine. Really, it is, it’s subjective after all. We all like different things.

My point is: saying that something is fine just because it has been around forever is complete bull***t. And so is saying that this does concern only the top players. After all, if that was the case, why even comment on this?

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Like I said if the exploits aren’t gamebreaking like the ones we had in May, its fine. Devs obviously know of this exploit and that they haven’t fixed it because they believe it as a part of the game by now and isn’t considered unethical as it doesn’t provide any overwhelming advantage.
Also I call bull on the reality crap, you’re literally a guy who can control and move multiple armies across the map or control the actions of an individual peasant or soldier. Ofc its not realistic

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Well what viper usually says is “it’s kind of an exploit, but it’s so long in the game, you probably cant change it. On the other hand its also kinda a skill, so it depends.”

So lets look at the ratings: currently i’m 1808, which corresponds to rank 209. There are 36k ppl ranked in 1v1 ladder, top one percent is the top360. So i’m actually part of that 1%, thats still not the 0.1%, who has actual changes to make something happen in tournaments but still. I won a few of nili’s KotH tournaments, its something ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Tbh i also use the palisade scan quite often, when i lose enemy army, when enemy is going for men@arms or is on stone. I would affect me.

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