Franks need a nerf

up until they were given the berry bonus and chivalry franks were flat awful.

3 Likes

Take away gunpowder and slightly nerf berries could work

taking away gunpowder does absolutely nothing to franks.

4 Likes

Franks are the exemplar Cav civ, which is a fundamental playstyle (like Britons are for Archers). We don’t want to mess with that element.

  • However, their infantry is also strong (full Tech Tree & Smith Upgrades for Champs and Halbs)
  • Also, strong defensive capabilities (Masonry, Architecture, Hoardings coupled with Treadmill Crane and Cheaper Castles),
  • Also cheaper castles constructed faster are an excellent segue for massing Throwing Axemen.
  • Add to that - Monastery is good (both Faith and Heresy, just missing Redemption/Atonement)

That’s way too many areas where they’re strong.

Suggestions (I’m just brainstorming) for 1v1:

  • Perhaps remove Champs or Halbs or both?
    Makes them vulnerable in the late game trash wars. Forces them to conserve Gold/Paladins and trust defensive structures to help weather the storm (or) finish off opponents earlier with numbers.
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Halb siege pretty much ruins everything the Franks can do without Bombard Cannon.

That being said removing french cannons is a bad idea.

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I also think so. Maybe Dev’s intention is make Dark age of each civ generic. But celts need some compensate buff for that. Their late game is not that great like goths and their army is very expensive to roll out.

But seige is very slow and easily countered by light cav though. Full armor Cavarly is better to deal with archer that they can catchup archers and Cav archers without few exception (Mangudai or Kipchak) and seige are way worse option in that case.

Also, Koreans/Vietnamese don’t have FU Halbs by lacking Blast Furnace, which is huge in Halb vs Halb fight. Light Cav line is most important in trash war because they are tankiest trash and mobile and good skirms cannot compensate much for that.

That’s true. Cumans are Top3 civ in 1v1 post-imp. 2TC boom is too risky in open map is just a problem. We can see some games in clown cup and last Champions league Viper(Cumans) vs Hera(Chinese) that how strong cumans late game is.

I am not insisting that Franks deserve some huge nerf but kind of small adjustment like reducing berry bonus is acceptable. That can make other civ start slower and other civ have a chance to do early damage.

Both are very important techs and missing these two techs is far from good monastery.

That is too huge nerf. Especially missing halbs they cannot deal with Camel civs. Also, I am not good at history but medieval France bad at infantry is kind of make a historical sense?

As I said, just remove the squires as a nerf for their champs and halvaldiers. But increase the base speed of the Throwing Axeman to compensate otherwise they would be too slow for a UU they should rely on.

1 Like

I’m not sure if squires is such a huge factor. Can you explain which counter-unit would benefit from the slowness of Franks infantry?
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Instead remove supplies perhaps? But even that I feel is too little. Removing Champs or Halbs is the way.

2 Likes

I think the main thing it’d help with is having other halbs being able to counter the Frank army. Whilst I’ve stated that Halbs ruin the paladin and gold is a requisite for all the counter units, you need not spend any gold on spamming your own halbs to neutralize generic halbs.

I don’t know if that much of a nerf is warranted though. I don’t believe so.

You don’t need to have all technologies to be a strong monastery. Having both Faith and Heresy helps protect the expensive OP Paladins. Their whole monastery Tech Tree is an excellent compliment for the Paladin spam.
Franks don’t need redemption because they’re not concerned about Siege. To counter opposition Monks, Atonement may be helpful but that will be OP, since Faith and Heresy is sufficient.
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Removing Champs is important. Halbs can be retained, but it’s weird to have a Civ with full Tech Tree for both OP Paladins and it’s direct counter Halbs.
In that case, there’s need to remove Plate Mail Infantry.
So in effect, remove Champs & Plate Mail Inf. It may seem like a strong nerf, but Franks primary path is Cavs and they’re well rounded in all aspects of that path.
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Also, please don’t bring in historical sense argument. This game for balance purposes denies many techs for the civilizations that actually invented them. :slight_smile:

2 Likes

Monastery is good (both Faith and Heresy, just missing Redemption/Atonement)

So, they have two useless techs that are never researched and miss two techs that are crucial for any monk/siege push, both for defending and attacking.

Threadmill crane doesnt matter. Its not worth to get. Just send more vills to build. And dont mass Throwing Axemen. Dont mass counter units. That should be obvious.

Again, some people just WANT to see franks as OP…

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I mean, they have been one of the most picked civs all year no matter what type of setting. (sans water)

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Yeah but the term “OP” does not mean popular or very strong. It means that one civ has overwhelming power and the other civs cant do anything about it. And thats an exageration.

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Faith/Heresy are useless? They’re pretty useful to protect Paladins.
Franks don’t need Monk/Siege push options. Their identity is Cavs. Why would you want to give them more options when they’re already strong in the Cavs path?
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Franks currently playstyle is easy for all skill levels to understand and master. That doesn’t make them OP per se. That makes them exemplary for that playstyle. But they do need a nerf to give them weaknesses in other aspects that other Civs can exploit.
Currently they’re OP in Cavs, strong in infantry, decent support Monks etc.
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Throwin Axemen HAVE made successful appearances even in tournament games. Cheaper castles and low cost of the Axemen present the option for Franks.

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but only as a support unit. not as the main unit in a composition.

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Well, in tournaments, even herbal medicin sees more use for that purpose. Faith/Heresy are useless because you need to protect more palas from conversions that the enemy can possible micro down in normal games. Id rather have 20 more palas and overrun the enemy than saving 2-3 palas from conversions.

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If the enemy is in the late game and spamming palas it’s too late to counter them with monks (btw almost all pala civs have faith+heresy anyway)
Redemption and atonement are both very important for Arena play, so that’s a map where Franks aren’t top tier.

Why should Franks have the same horrid swordsmen as Huns? On top of that having full tech tree for both halbs and paladins isn’t weird that’s basic civ balance, you can notice all paladin civs get halbs.

Sure, but maybe there are other solutions before nuking a civ’s tech tree?

If only hey were stuck with castle age archers and bad trash and mediocre monks they would have weaknesses right?

The option to lose to straight archers .

1 Like

Franks are one of the strongest civ that is true. But honestly I don’t really want to see a nerf. The big nerf of Aztecs already makes me sad. And also for Burmese, Cumans and Indians without any compensation. First we have to fix the nerf for other Civ.

2 Likes

for those of you who don’t understand how the pick-positions style of team games work: you could delete frank’s entire tech tree that isn’t economy + cavalry and the civ would still be too strong

nerfing their B-plan and C-plan and D-plan doesn’t actually reduce their raw power in the settings where they are chosen, so it doesn’t really fix them. it just makes them worse when you play a random civ game

you can sort of outplay franks in a 1v1 (although maybe it needs to be easier than it is now). but you can’t really prevent someone from utilizing a berry & farm & bloodlines-like bonus in a 3v3/4v4. the only way to actually nerf civs that are must-haves in force-position teamgames is to depower their A-plan

3 Likes

Thats a horrible proposition. As you correctly point out, franks are really strong as pockets and “meh” at best as flanks. And its not just franks, mind you. Many civs have the same problem. Forcing rnd team placements means that RNG decides whether or not your civ is strong or garbage. So you could have two teams on equal skill level, with the same civs, and just the team placement rng would decide which side wins. Awesome gameplay. Alternativly, people might just start picking the few civs that do well regardless of position, which leaves just a handfull of civs to play. Awesome gameplay again.

If you want RNG to have such a big impact, it is possible to open a lobby without fixed positions.

Edit after reading @TougherTrack508 reply: I probably misunderstood. If you want to leave team game positions alone and just try to keep their pocket play in check, i kinda do agree with you. However, we enter dangerous terrain. Keeping TG pocket play in check was EXACTLY what happend to Indians, and you can see the feedback…

2 Likes