I think @TheBiz1 meant the Frank Paladin spam should be made less powerful, not that team placements should be random.
He’s got a point that you could completely remove the archery range, barracks, siege workshop, and UU, and it would matter little for the team game performance. (At least from what I’ve seen. Though I did see them using BBC.) And their pick rate in team games is more problematic than in 1v1s, so a nerf should make sure to hurt their team game as much as their 1v1 play, ideally.
Squires is bigger than supplies slows down their halberdiers, so that gives more time to camels or your halbs to fight. Squires is an important technology. Anyways, the nerf doesn’t need to be too big. They are not critically OP because their units still can be countered quite well.
this is naive
with position-picking we still just see a similarly low quantity of civs (see franks + xbow-only civs)
i don’t really mind that they tried it. trying new things is fine. but we’ve seen enough to know what it does
instead of picking versatile civs people just pick civs that excel at one thing, and then they only ever have to make that single unit all the time
if they want to leave position-picking as the default setting, then i want to see more nerfs because some civs (like franks / ethiopia / mayan / briton) are just way ahead of the other options. but that would inevitably anger the 1v1-focused players. the other option is to leave civs alone and get rid of position-picking because there actually aren’t any civs that have overpowered paladin spam AND overpowered arbalest spam.
at least the games were interesting when people played with civs that have B-tier cavalry & B-tier archers instead of S-tier cavalry or S-tier archers
if people are picking stuff like huns / mongol / china, they are fine civs but they don’t really do anything that has no counterplay. mangudai might be strong, but you can actually do stuff before they build up to that point. with franks there isn’t really any point in the game where you can be ahead of what they can produce
even if someone picks franks and gets lucky and gets in the pocket position, you still have more options because those knights would get paired with generic crossbows instead of overpowered ones
when people are picking more flexible civs, that actually lets you play with more civs because the delta in power level between what they can do and what you can do is smaller. i’m not saying that some civs won’t be better than others, but you can take 2 random civs and still have some opportunity to outplay some combination of hun / mongol / china than you do against franks paired with ethiopia/mayan/brit xbow spam
Just remove the 20% HP bonus and Light Cavalry. Add +10 HP starting in Feudal Age and Bloodlines.
I move to give Frank Palladins + 1 pierce armor starting in castle age and +2 in imperial age total.
You may remove squires from their infantry,
You may even remove pikes from them,
But you will never have their palladins.
All rise. Take a seat. Court is now in session.
Lets count. Strong/Viable as flanks are
Britons
Chinese
Japanese
Mongols (some maps)
Saracens
Vikings
Koreans
Mayans
Ethiopians
Malay
Vietnamese
Tatars
Strong/viable as pockets are
Franks
Goths
Mongols
Persians
Teutons
Turks (after recent buff)
Huns
Spanish
Indians
Magyars
Slavs
Berber
Bulgarians
Cumans
Lithuanians
Khmer
So 28 out of 35 Civs. You can argue a few, but i think the point is clear: With fixed positions, most civs are at least viable. And now lets take a step back and remember that the game is generally balanced around 1v1. Yes, a few civs are above the curve in team games. But after the last patch, to worst got addressed.
But thats not the choice with rnd positions. It would hardly ever be B-Tier vs B-Tier. It would be S-Tier vs B-Tier in many, many games.
The frank strength is in their early castle kts spam. You propose a buff to that strategy. How would that improve anything?
I think thats not enough. Frank paladins are so famous for their strenght since AoK times. How about a new teambonus: Archers only deal 1 dmg to kts.
You might say that sounds broken. Hell, it IS broken. Its a stupidly OP buff to a civ that might need a small nerf, if anything. But hey, why let realism get in the way of our fantasy?
so what the actual eff is your point? again, just to one upmanship? the point still stands then… what is mali supposed to do against any of those civs (rolls eyes)
i yet again humbly apologise because i didnt state things exactly as you wanted them, which is actually impossible… since you would find something to criticise somehow…
omf, ok so 4 eco bonuses, not 5.
and yes ah shame free bloodlines for franks is worse than any other civ having to pay for it? wtf logic. really man… im done arguing anything you say further with this amazing logic.
yes that is an exageration… your definition of OP is an exageration… well done for correcting yourself unintentionally…
arena play is the vast majority of games? you know what? mayans are actually weak… because they’re hardly seen on water maps. i think we should buff mayans…
lol seriously? ill remember that the next time they field siege engineers + bbc vs siege balls especially…
No, no, no, no, no Jesus Christ no. This is way too op to give to any cavarly civ, let alone Franks
Beat them before Imp.
Did you actually read what @Temudschinn and I told you? Only berries and free farm upgrades are actual eco bonuses.
What about you quote the full sentence? I said it’s worse bloodlines for units that aren’t knights. So scouts/light cav do end up being worse for Franks once other civs research bloodlines. You could have argued about how the fact the Frank bonus comes in play earlier is too strong to your taste or something but instead of using real arguments you’re playing victim.
No that’s the actual definition of OP. Not “oh my god some random civ “only” wins 43% of the time against another civ that happens to be popular let’s nerf this other civ that dares be good”
It’s the only map that is always in the map pool alongside Arabia for a good reason.
If you random them on water they are OK lol, they have everything besides cannon galleon.
Don’t tell me you still believe that siege civs can’t win against BBC 11
Making %20 HP bonus starting in Castle Age or not all of cavalry, just knight-line benefitting from it can remove scout opening to knights build order.
Nerfing berries and Castles can be enough.(2 of them to %20 or for Castles remove a tech).
Or don’t change anything. Suppose players know well how to play as Franks.
To be frank, castle age bonus would be a bit much, since they already have the hp bonus we can take out the castle portion and just give them +0/1 in imp - to give their extra hp more meaning
You understand me so well
Man, extra PA on Knights (and cavalry units in general) is quite strong, and in Knights is just broken even if is just 1, now imagine being raided by Knights with 5 PA which archers only do 2 damage and defensive structures can’t holdp up, look at the Turkish new bonus how strong is in feudal, and even spearmen can’t stand up.
It had to happen 11
There really are a lot of ridiculous statements in this thread…
I did not read everything but the list of reasonable nerfs right now to me seem to be:
Listbreaker
Edit, the auto formatting messed up the numbers. No idea how to fix it. Numbers 1-3 are the ideas listed numbers 4-6 i wrote 1-3 again, they relate to the first list.