If you don’t know how to fix it, what chance do I have of understanding it @_@
Managed to fix it now putting a word in between the lists…
You’d mentioned a slight Berry nerf. How would ou feel about taking away Halb, leaving the spear line stopped at Pike instead? I mean, Axe bois are practically made to kill the spear line, so it’s not like they have no counter to Halb.
Pretty poor idea. They just die to heavy camel then, right?
The Frank civ is not among the best. They have not Bombard towers. They have not Siege Onagers.
And their bonuses lasts only until Imperial age. Their Light cavalry are weak.
Also, they can not use Camels or Battle elephants. So they may use less options to play at Castle and Imperial age…
The Franks have bonuses at the begining of the game.
they absolutely are among the best civs in the game. arguably a top 3 pocket in team games, and in 1v1 they have been one of the most picked civs all year long.
here’s the most recent 1v1 tournament with lots of people in it
franks had a positive winrate and one of the highest pickrates/play rates there was.
they also have dominant winrates on the ladder.
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They need not Bombard towers. Bombard towers are practically only a late teamgame option. Their main teamgame contribution will always be Paladin. Outside of teamgames, BBT holds very little tactical value.
All paladin civs must have halberdiers, so that the first one to get paladins first doesn’t outright win.
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Franks have been one of the most buffed civ from aoc…
Foragers bonus, LC HP, Axeman HP increased, Chivalry which is insanely powerful, all of those bonus stacks for a stronger castle age and imperial gameplay, the free mill upgrades is a lot, i don’t know in what level do you think that saving resources on those free tecs is comparable to extra damage to boars from goths, there is a reason why they have such strong boom.
Franks have one of the most powerful army compositions in the game, that is why it was one of the best civs to play DM, despite their weak range units they compensate that with the axeman and siege.
The silly thing about stats is that they were #1 civ before rise of rajas, despite no one used them in tournaments in the past their winning rate was above the rest, so according to stats they did not need too many changes.
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And there is a reason for that, they were straight up AWFUL from AoC until Forgotten.
and how many changes have they received rise of the rajas and beyond? none.
they got buffed in forgotten (Forage bonus, Squires, Chivalry, and some TA changes) and african kingdoms (20% hp extended to scouts, TA buff). nothing Rise of the Rajas or beyond. so i have no idea why you are bringing that up.
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AoC stats franks were the civ with highest win rate, i say before rise of rajas, because before that expansion the game was merely for the small and way less skilled community for the HD, in conclusion it was irrelevant, so the community the good players met the overbuffed franks until that moment, which shows that even without those buffs the civ was doing fine in the colossal amount of data obtained from the tons of recorded games.
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and how were they at the highest level. considering the fact that the devs felt the need to buff them numerous times i’m gonna go with not very good. and considering no one has really questioned why franks got buffed, i’m gonna go with they felt the same way. but hey, i guess you know better then everyone, just like your Indians opinions which are so clearly correct despite most people disagreeing with you.
you know, we should turn over balance to you, since you’re clearly better then the devs, the pros, and everyone else, and know more then all of us.
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11 you again, look boy i never believed that franks were the best civ of AOC not in any way, but the stats were saying that they had the biggest win rate across all levels from the sum of all recorded games database from all levels in years.
So if we follow balance changes according to stats then franks didn’t need anything.
I am not even against franks changes, just the forager bonus was too much and i was there on the big balance discussion from 2012 that gave birth to the FE expansion, in fact the forager bonus was being pushed for koreans instead and i was really disappointed that only 3 aoc civ got a powerful second UT including franks, another big change to an already well rounded civ, at least for land balance.
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the key words here are “ACROSS ALL LEVELS”. you don’t balance across all levels. you balance around the top.
Franks had high winrates across all levels because they were the epitome of a noob civ and still are.
I agree the Berry bonus needs a bit of a nerf, but to say that they were fine pre buff is false.
by the way,
this is hilarious seeing as i’m older then you. food for thought.
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When it’s your civ’s only eco bonus it sucks HARD. But I can admit it’s not only better than the goth boar bonus but also the korean stone bonus ig.
People play Franks wars in DM because they have a nice unit triangle anyway Huns win in DM with no mirror civs
Mayans? Aztecs? Huns?
Oh that’s interesting, tho with the mess that korean balance ended up being maybe this outcome wasn’t the worst, they would have been able to axe the forager bonus before the tower one
I suppose the other two are Mayan and Britons?
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Mongols?
I donno, I think the Aztecs, Persians (new one not old one), and Turks all got strong bonuses on top of Franks, Mayans and Britons.
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Well we are discussing the OG FE so boiling oil is more relevant (and it suck) atlatl is just a band-aid for the bad Aztec trash and the Turk one is nice but not usable every game like warwolf/obsidian arrow.
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i wasn’t talking design wise, but the point is they all are extremely useful in there own right, and given a cav archer buff, the turk one would be useful pretty much round the clock.
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No, for mayan it was broken, the good second UT’s were for japanese, brits and franks, while the rest of the civs got something like boiling oil for persians, etc, etc.
At that point franks were having too many buffs stacking, when they added the lc extra HP they should have reduced the forager bonus, not just giving more and more.
The whole consensus about that huge balance discussion back at 2012 considered only 5 changes as the big priority to balance things(yeah the mongs,viking,hun,mayans,aztk), it would have been better to follow those changes, but the FE team decided to take 3 of those changes and add 20 of their own, the community got hurt after that and got really deceptive against balance changes, that was why the HD was ignored for several years despite the FE mods were available on voobly.
Cysion said his balancing would be always pro newbies which i find hilarious now, their MM system has created the most humillant noob bashing matches i have ever seen before.
I think they have lost the path when it comes to balancing, not fixing the civs before adding more with more units and now even mechanics, that has created this never ending cycle of balance topics, where everyone wants to balance at their own will, balancing this game wasn’t that hard back at aoc because everyone knew what was broken, but after each expansion 3 of the new civs had just too many bonuses that up to this date keeps being completely broken, not fixng that has gave the idea to players and most users here that OPness gives identity and most civs should be stronger and stronger.
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i honestly think there is a good approach wich dont hinder Franks too much in their Powerspike and also make them balanced
i propose this in theory of other civs that also got this treatment
first and foremost i think their berry bonus can be cut to 20% instead of 25% that is a valid numbering nerf
secondly i would say they can get the Malian/Ethiopian treatment meaning the free farn bonus is only the first one the second one needs to be researched
also i agree that maybe bearded axe and chivallary need to be switch but i dont know if its too much of a hop to switch both
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