Fresh food stuffs is way too strong. It comes way too early in the game for a 50% discount. The reason the Palace of Swabia for the HRE isn’t too broken is because it comes at the end of the game when you can’t snowball mass villagers into a huge early lead.
There is not enough that can be done to deny expansions early on and there is nothing you can do to stop them from getting the tech.
Fresh Food Stuffs needs to be nerfed to a 40% reduction of cost or it needs to be moved to the Castle Age Tier so that they cannot get such a giant leap ahead at the start of the game.
Abbasid has the lowest win rate in Diamond+
Trying to nerf the civ with the lowest win rate is insane.
Abbasid need that tech to got something on feudal.
Other civs got something from aging up, but Abbasid has to pay extra cost to get the relative tech.
The win rates are all very close together. Fresh Food Stuffs is over powered. Abbysid always is ahead by the mid game regardless of the other civ’s opening.
I don’t have all the answers for their losses, but that doesnt mean we should leave something broken in the game.
From the pro games I have watched, Abbysid is always ahead and the losses are because they threw a big fight or just didnt move from on from trash units (since theirs are superior).
Im not saying get rid of it. It just needs to be tweaked. Itcis too strong in its current form.
Fresh foodstuff might be to strong, wait untill the next big patch with the Trade-rework. 30w 30g Traders for Abbasid.
You’ll be seeing a lot more Feudal Tradewing builds!
You aren’t making much of an argument, it’s basically just “50% is too much, it should be 40% or not available till castle”. You need to explain what leads you to those conclusions.
For example, we can look at the resource saving of fresh foodstuffs.
1 TC - 75 food per minute
2 TC - 150 food per minute
3 TC - 225 food per minute
It only takes 2 villagers to collect 75 food per minute, so with 1 TC it’s like having 2 extra villagers. Mongols can also have extra villagers by double producing from the TC, so just to compare those two civs you’d need to look at all the costs and returns and when they occur. French also effectively have extra villagers due to their faster villager production. You could also compare against Delhi, for example, with their free techs, again listing the costs and returns and times at which they occur. Only then do you have a sensible analysis of the relative balance of the different civ bonuses. At the moment, you’re simply asserting without any supporting analysis that it’s “way too strong”.
@breeminator explained it ver well, but if it is a OP tech why doesn’t Abbasid has a better win rate?
In fact is a very good tech, but I wouldn’t say that it give the game for Abbasid players in feudal.
I am main Abbasid, and for example when playing against french, fresh foodstuffs gives me some oxygen to build spearmen or horsemen and be able to defend myself.
Think that while other civs obtain advantages from aging up, Abbasid don’t, and if your HoW landmark is out, you can’t age up. This happened to me last week, a chineese guy massed a lot of Zhu ge, and I thought that best solution was to get fast castle and get mangonels, because I would need like 20 horsemen to deal with them. Then I see he is massing rams, and when my age up was about 10 seconds to complete my landmark was out and I throwed gg.
Trade only viable on certain maps; Open land maps will be waaaaaaaaaay too expensive and hard to defend. Esp when the alternative is safe freshfood stuff vils
My issue with Fresh Foodstuffs is that it’s the obvious choice pretty much every game.
A minor nerf could be justified but only if other strong civs get nerfed in the early game (read: Rus).
The problem with Fresh food stuffs is the amount of savings that occurs and when it occurs. If you assume 120 vill game, you will have the tech by about 30 vills which means you get 2250 resources saved if you never have to remake villagers. The Dehli civ bonus saves thousands of resources too, but it comes with a significant cost of much slower research.
The problem with saving costs on villagers is it is an exponential gain because villagers generate the income and villagers are what you spend a large of you income on in the first 15 minutes. You get massive savings early which allows you to get a massive income lead early which snowballs.
The french and chinese villager production speed increases are not a prblem because the cost of the villagers is still full cost which means it takes more resources to maintain constant production which means their attacks or defenses must be slower.
The Mongols cannot constantly double produce villagers because the stone collection rate is not fast enough so while they can get a few ahead they do not have an insurmountable lead.
If FF was too strong, Abbasid would dominate in Diamond+ instead of being the civ with the lowest win rate. Which means that even with Fresh Foodstuff Abbasid is underperforming.
If HRE gets 4 relics they get 800 gold per minute. So in just 3 minutes they get more resources from relics than Abbasid get from Fresh Foodstuff for the entire game.
But you can not look at a single advantage like Fresh Foodstuff or HRE relics in a vacuum. You need to look at the civ overall, are they winning too much or not.
bro lets take fast vill production of french and chinese too then they are op too
HRE relics are completely different. Relics are being nerfed in the next patch, but there is also counterplay to relics. You can make units to stop HRE from getting relics. You can get to castle age close to their time and try to compete for relics.
There is no counterplay to fresh food stuffs. It comes too early in the game for you to take preventative measures. You cant stop them from researching it. You cant effectively stop them from getting a 2nd TC without doing so much eco damage to yourself that they are still ahead.
The French and Chinese villagers being produced faster is an advantage for sure and a good one. However it is not overpower because by keeping the food cost the same per villager, it requires an increased cost to get those villagers out.
The french bonus is small and leads to a trickle advantage whereas the abbysid bonus is an exponential increase.
The chinese bonus requires weakness at the start because the increased cost of constant villager production means they cannot afford an army early.
The cheaper Abbysid villagers means they can also field an army while doubling their economy. TCs provide so much defense early that having a few units out is enough.
The other thing is you counter an expanding player by raiding them to take away the advantage they are getting. Abbysid get punished half as much. If you manage to raid a chinese or French they lose more resources even though they can replenish faster. This makes their moment of weakness more prominent for a shorter window.
making faster villagers are the samething when you build a second TC it nearly act likes a third TC for french and chinese what are we gonna do that
french and english can create units without stable and archery range what are we gonna do about it if this thing you want gonna happen then their lanmarks must cost 150 more wood
This. Imo they can/should make it weaker but give them bigger bonuses on other wings. That way the civ would remain its strength but there would be more strategies to choose from.
While fresh food stuff is broken but so is palace of swabia. Fresh food stuff gives you insanely good lead at start with multiple TC’s, but in later stages it falls off because there may not be need for replenishing vills at same rate and food is not relevant issue at later stages.
But swabia is completely different beast and is as much broken as fresh food stuff. Firstly any raiding becomes instantly almost meaningless if its fast imperial due how fast HRE prints villagers then the -20% cost reduction on landmark itself and then villager cost reduction too. It has no drawbacks at all. Its perfect landmark and broken as hell.
I played against Szalamii and Beasty in 2v2 and me and my random ally we raided HRE constant (Beasty was HRE) with the constant pressure and kills on vills he went to imperial around 9min mark and after that his villagers graphic never showed down trend because of swabia. So if civ can reach imperial in 9mins and swabia just overcomes all the vill kills then the landmark is way too strong and needs nerf.
Start with equalizing the price of landmark and make it 20% more expensive than normal landmakrs. Make fresh food stuff to apply only starting TC
fresh food(FF), may or may not be OP, the bigger issue, is that nothing else is on par with the power of the tech.
IF we nerf FF, abba will likely need a compensatory buff, but that being said they likely need a buff to the other wings anyway
was it this low? i played the PUP and i dont recall their traders being this cheap, wasnt it closer to 40/40?
agreed, even if its not broken, its overtuned and far too desirable compared to the alternative, even more so because its so cheap to age into