Future of Native Americans

[ArrivedLeader22]

Imagine pointing at 19th century French paintings and assert that “Oriental people” wear high exposure dresses or even go full naked but with tons of golden necklaces, carry a lute or a scimitar everywhere including bathrooms, and of course everyone likes clustering in those bathrooms with carpets covering the walls, and it’s okay to depict the “Oriental” civilizations, including Turks, Arabs, Jews, Persians, Indians, and of course also ancient Babylonians, in that way. And it has been like this for long so any attempt trying to revert that image is political correctness.

That’s why archeology and cultural studies are both academic fields man.

[SchwarzeGarde49]

Which would be a valid start on your journey to discover said cultures. You would be pleasantly surprised to discover that those depictions corresponded well with depictions made by respective people centuries ago, as in your example - eg icons made by persian artist sultan Muhammad have the golden necklaces, the scimitars, the dresses with exposure, the oriental style and even depictions that would be deemed heretic now, under a “political correctness” cultural censorship.

All I’m asking is for something like this:

Authentic, original, insightful artwork of yakutian natives. Those units are currently represented by DOGS btw. But everyone seems to be ok with it.

[ArrivedLeader22]

@SchwarzeGarde49

eg icons made by persian artist sultan Muhammad have the golden necklaces, the scimitars, the dresses with exposure, the oriental style and even depictions that would be deemed heretic now, under a “political correctness” cultural censorship.

Find a single sentence when I say these do not exist.

Now what about every “oriental” unit in the game look like this? All female villagers only wear a bra and a transparent skirt? And hang carpets on every single building? And have a bunch of naked slaves clustered in their palaces? And gain magical powers by going to baths?

Someone: No Mongols don’t ride horse to work every day.
You: But Mongols DID have horses. They were famous for riding horses. That’s an authentic cultural depiction. Ohhhh POLITICAL CORREEEEEEEEECT.

[ArrivedLeader22]

BTW our perfectly politically incorrect buddy seemed to be really pissed if the British got an upgraded PrOTesTaNt church model like every civ does.

It is a case where you not only have “authentic” artworks, but also photographs, and even real world examples you can literally find everyday.
But no.

[SchwarzeGarde49]

Way to go absolutely derailing this thread ad absurdum. I’ve provided three genuine pieces of relevant native depictions that are close to the timeframe of this game. I’ve yet to see artworks of american natives that look totally different from ingame models. Seems to me ad hominem is all you’re capable of once arguments run out.

[ArrivedLeader22]

@SchwarzeGarde49

genuine pieces of relevant native depictions

From 1920, 50 years after the event, by an artist who probably never met a single one of the participants.

Why do you think cultural research even exist?
We have artifacts, records, remnants of those cultures today, replicates and experiments with them, to deduce what should be like in that period under that social structure and what shouldn’t. With these researches we could be more knowledgable than some artist whose sole job is to draw an impressive piece of painting.

Or according to you this should be the most authentic depiction of ancient Assyrians because ancient Assyrians don’t draw oil canvas paintings.

The Death of Sardanapalus

20 years ago and earlier every single Roman soldier from every time period in fictions wears lorica segmentata. No additional records have been found about it, nor has anyone discovered a very realistic oil canvas painting of the Romans, between then and now. But now with researches people realize it may be impractical.

And what happens between The Mummy and the much more faithful and “accurate” depictions of ancient Egyptians in more recent media? Has anyone excavated realistic oil canvas paintings by ancient Egyptians themselves during this time period?

[SirBarnzy1]

So, anyway - it’s fine for well researched suggestions on here and even better for civs which seem neglected, not played as much and those that could do with a far better portrayal.

Native American civs tick the all of the above and I do not think the arguement here is that they ‘deserve it more’ than others such as the Asian Civs, rather that this is a thread focusing on NA civs (and even further focused on ones hailing from North America) solely so it is absolutely ludicrous for others to move goalposts around when the OP has a fairly obvious topic title and subject.

Those looking at negatives just need to step back and see that topics like this are really beneficial when well researched and have legit research put in - no bad can come of this if Devs look into Native American civs, particularly Lakota as I think it’s fair give them a more accurate light. Europeans have loads of love and attention - and that’s fair - they’re played all the time and Europeans are a fair chunk of the audience (speaking as a European player), however imagine if Native Americans were genuinely unique in gameplay rather than having strange, sweepingly broad buildings and traits such as community plazas - I’d certainly jump.at the chance to play as a civ who have unique, justified ‘gimmicks’.

I think the first port of call from the Devs is renaming and reskins for Lakota with the units and buildings that still serve a purpose in mind.

Secondly the big one where new buildings and conpletely new units are needed, which means gameplay changes. This is the one that will make the biggest difference however is also the one that is harder to make a reality!

[AnaWinters]

Since art seemed to be a relevant feature here, I wanted to pull up some more depictions of Natives, by Natives

Buffalo Calf Road Woman

A Cheyenne warrior, Buffalo Calf Road Woman saved her brother from the field of battle while under active gunfire from US troops. Her charge inspired the rest of her people to follow her into battle.

Strongheart Wicasha

Bearing the distinctive buffalo horn headdress of the Stronghearts, a modern ledger art example of this Akicita’s ceremonial wear.

A Medicine Man

As I learned recently, the bear headdress was typical of a Medicine Man or Woman. So, as cool as the Tashunke Prowlers look, they’re wearing the ceremonial wear of a Medicine Wo/Man. Honestly, I should have known this - Hunomp, the lesser spirit of wisdom, is also credited as the spirit of healing and medicine.

Winyan of War

This one features a Lakota woman riding to war, brandishing a lance.

Women at War

This one is of particular interest because it features things that I know that people here won’t like - The Other Magpie (right) and Osh-Tisch (left). Both of these Crow women fought, and - something worth noting - is that Osh-Tisch means “Finds Them and Kills Them” and she is a trans woman (by our modern standards). The Crow, however, did not look down on her in this time period for this - she fought alongside her tribe’s women and men just as much and was valued as a warrior, as so proven by her name.
While The Other Magpie is a Crow woman and fought and killed my own people, the Lakota, I find she is still worth bringing up. I listed the Crow Crazy Dogs as a potential Native mercenary unit, and it would be most interesting to have them based upon these two. They fought together and lived as friends, and were just two more in a long line of warrior women the Crow had - Woman Chief is another example.

Moving Robe Woman

This is one of the few contenders of who may have killed Custer - others being White Cow Bull and Buffalo Calf Road Woman (see the first picture). An important thing to note about Moving Robe Woman here is her clothes - should the devs ever choose to include female soldiers among the Natives, Moving Robe Woman shows an important distinction in breastplates. Men wore bonepipe breastplates. The woman shown, however, wears a hairpipe breastplate, with the beads showing vertically, not horizontally.

Pitamakan

Lastly, a Blackfoot warrior, Pitamakan. A warchief of the Blackfoot (not the Lakota band), Pitamakan led her warriors into battle for many years. While rarer among the Blackfeet than among the Crows or Lakota, women were still seen as equals, if they put in the effort.
It’s also interesting to note that Pitamakan died in battle, but as an older woman. She was not young when she was finally felled in battle.

---

Anyway, part of why I did this was to highlight women in Native American culture, as well as highlight the traditional outfits worn into battle. Alongside previous images I’ve posted in this discussion, I think there’s a solid ground to stand on for potential reskins of the Lakota military roster.
I’m not gonna be picky about what each cavalry unit does and the stats it has, as I don’t think the Lakota military needs much of a facelift. The most I would suggest is to more heavily specialize all the units, and remove references to the Nakoda, Comanche, and Cree, and replace those with Arapaho, Cheyenne, and potentially Blackfoot references - though the Blackfoot may be questionable, they were neither enemies nor friends of each other. Paying for a Blackfoot mercenary would be interesting.

Yeah, long post, but worth it. There’s a lot of interesting things here.

[FiveWind6951746]

My only thought about this subject is simple: I’m all for enrichment. As we’ve seen what FE has done with Euros we know they are quite capable given the small budget they have to work with it.

[SirBarnzy1]

Absolutely - I think this is the key. The Euro stuff was above and beyond (for example, English New Model Army skins for the Musketeers with The Thin Red Line tech - absolutely no need for it, however I think that’s just fantastic ), so I’d love to see their flair for a little historical accuracy touch the NA civs!

[FiveWind6951746]

My concern with NA civs in particular since they need the most work is what the budget allows them to do. The good thing with threads like this is the research is already done for them, and renaming certain units sounds easy enough. It’s the complete gameplay overhaul that gets me worried.

[FiveWind6951746]

Playing Lakota in team games with AI is really frustrating since you rely on sending bison as your primary source of food income your allied vills will swarm into your base so you end up competing with 30 other vills.

This says more about bad gameplay design than it does about AI. The fact you have to send cards to keep your economy going is just bad.

[SirBarnzy1]

@FiveWind6951746

My concern with NA civs in particular since they need the most work is what the budget allows them to do. The good thing with threads like this is the research is already done for them, and renaming certain units sounds easy enough. It’s the complete gameplay overhaul that gets me worried.

Yeah, that’s a concern of mine too.
The other good thing about these threads is that they’re active (lots of opinions!) and are at the very least high enough on the forum for the Devs to possibly see.

[Grizzly]

I’m not sure if you’ve followed Age of Empires 2’s DLC at all, but the recent “Dynasties of India” DLC did something I would love to see them do here:

Previously, AoE2 had an “India” civilisation, which was definitely far too broad. The Dynasties of India DLC instead reworked the India civilisation into the Hindustanis, and added three more civs to the mix.

You could do something similar in AoE3: Make a North America focused DLC that adds two more factions, and also rework the Lakota and Haudenosaunee for “free”.

[AnaWinters]

@AnaWinters

The most I would suggest is to more heavily specialize all the units, and remove references to the Nakoda, Comanche, and Cree, and replace those with Arapaho, Cheyenne, and potentially Blackfoot references

To expand on this, here’s a couple ideas. Note that the Rifle Rider and Bow Rider swap positions in terms of “uniqueness”. I wanted to emphasize that, while guns were strong, it was adherence to tradition that most of these soldiers followed, and that every Lakota man, woman, and child learned to use a bow from the day they could draw one.

Keeping the roster more-or-less the same, adjust as follows:

Bow Rider → Owns Alone

• Although the name isn’t specifically for this subject, the Owns Alone are a specifically female group. (If you want to get historical, their deal was ensuring men remained faithful to their wives - were the men to cheat, the Owns Alone killed them, Russian Roulette style.) Putting them into the military would be interesting, to replace the Bow Riders. Since this unit is already being weird and a bit made-up, I figure… why not go all-out and include an interesting weapon that combined the bow and the lance? Make them an interesting cavalry archer-lancer combination, where they deal more damage to infantry as well as cavalry, and then have a high bonus into infantry in melee, but are less effective into cavalry.
  

Axe Rider → Warpath Badger

• Give the Warpath Badger a lance and wrap the end in otterfur. Might be rather hard to do, but doable. There’s not much way to portray the “mirrors embedded in their lance” unless we want to give melee cavalry a bleed attack, but these would be much the same as they are now - mediocre health cavalry units with a high attack. I personally give them the “Wolverine Spirit” as a cardable upgrade that gives them the ability to regenerate. (No, this isn’t historical. This is an X-Men reference.)

Rifle Rider → Crow Owner

• this would require mostly a recolor to make their horses and colorations to be largely black in color, and to give them an ever-larger crow headdress. In regards to their position as winter scouts and intention to act as rear-guard and vanguard, making them faster than most Dragoons would be interesting. This would involve removing their bonus into heavy infantry and status as a heavy cavalry unit, though keeping their high RoF would be thematic. With the Owns Alone being so unique and focusing on cultural weapons, it stands to reason that the Crow Owner would be brought more in-line with normal units, though an upgrade to give them ranged resist would be interesting.

Tashunke Prowler → Itkunyan Prowler

• The Arson Prowler is something I’ve brought up many times. Theoretically, it could also be named the Blotahunka Prowler. Really, it just comes down to this: Give the unit a new model (a big headdress would be neat) and make them a siege trooper cavalry, throwing torches at buildings and using a stone warclub in melee to retain their current AoE. The build limit is justified by their status as Blotahunka, which were limited in number. Give them a large shield to justify a large range resist.

Tokala Soldier → Kitfox Soldier or Tokhala Soldier

• Don’t got much to say, just change the name to one or the other. As it is, it reads weird.

---

Rename the Cheyenne Rider to Dog Soldier or Dog Man.
Replace the Cree Tracker with the Muskagee Red Stick.
Replace the Comanche Horse Archer with the Crow Crazy Dog.
Replace the Nakoda references with the Arapaho Cloud Sister mercenary.

Potentially add a Blackfoot mercenary along the lines of Running Eagle? (Pitamakan)

Ideas.

[Grizzly]

I’d argue that being a bit weird and made up would put the Owns Alone in explorer skin or unique shipment territory.

I think that with the proposed Crow Owners you kinda end up with a unit that’s somewhat similar to the bow rider in terms of doctrine. Based on your outlines, I’d suggest merging the former bow and rifle rider unit into one ranged-cav line. One that starts out with bows in Commerce, and then gains more advanced firearms as they progress through their upgrade tree. You’d end up with a unit line that neatly represents relative flexibility and rapid adaptability.

[AnaWinters]

@Grizzly

unique shipment territory.

I’d be down for unique shipment territory. Make the Tokhala Soldiers a bit more achievable, then replace one of the lost Messenger-class ally shipments cards with the Owns Alone.
The proposal has them losing Comanche Horse Archers and Cree Trackers, and gaining mercenaries instead. Having one more non-merc unit to ship in would be useful - Replacing a couple of those lost cards with Owns Alone shipments would certainly spice things up.

@Grizzly

One that starts out with bows in Commerce, and then gains more advanced firearms as they progress through their upgrade tree

I’m rather against losing the bow, as the cavalry archer is the preeminent Lakota fighting style. Every man, woman, and child learned to use a bow, and most learned well enough to shoot accurate from full gallop to hunt bison. The bow and the horse are the two main things that define the Lakota culture - a cavalry archer should be among the strongest aspects of the Lakota military, next to a lancer and a mounted sharpshooter.

[Grizzly]

@AnaWinters

I’m rather against losing the bow, as the cavalry archer is the preeminent Lakota fighting style. Every man, woman, and child learned to use a bow, and most learned well enough to shoot accurate from full gallop to hunt bison. The bow and the horse are the two main things that define the Lakota culture - a cavalry archer should be among the strongest aspects of the Lakota military, next to a lancer and a mounted sharpshooter.

Hmm. In that case, I’d suggest making the bow rider similar in role to the european pikemen or crossbow units: Cheaper then other units, costing wood instead of coin, but limited in upgrade potential. It’s fairly unique to have the majority of your population to be able to fight from horseback, so you could make the bow rider represent that fact by being very easy to mass.

(You’d also distinguish them from the rifle riders by virtue of the rifle riders costing coin, where you kinda imply that the lakota can make their own bows but have to buy their rifles)