Do people even use siege towers?
I agree. Battering Ram cost 300 wood may actually be okay. Not sure whether they have Siege Engineers or not
Also agree. If there is one unit that is an interesting concept for the next trash unit via a UT it’s the ram.
I just want to mention that all trash units need to have at least 1 trash or semi-trash counter. Malay trashmen are already on the edge of unfairness cause they don’t have a real “counter” in the trash countering wheel. At least hussars kind of soft-counter them.
That’s why trash monks seemingly isn’t a problem as hussars counter them quite well.
I would be very interested in trash rams. I think this would eb a really cool idea for Cumans as a replacement for the stupid mercenaries tech. Cumans lategame isn’t the best either, so having access to trash rams wouldn’t make them immediately OP even if it turns out to be a very strong tech.
Something I also want to share here because I also want to give the thread a little tweak.
Imo we could think of adding some new general trash units to diversify the meta. I tried to make this in one own project but couldn’t find the time to make the mod I wanted. But feel free to be inspired by my
Hypothetical trash unit thread
Containing designs of several new trash units which could be fun to play with. The exact designs are hidden, you need to click on the arrow before the Unique Unit of each of the Civs I inclined them into.
I tried to give each of these trash units a natural Gold composition partner and also tried to make each of them countering one of the typical main compositions (like skirms counter archers/spearmen).
Shieldmen are for pure Inf comps, Jinetes for monk/HC/siege comps, lightbowmen for camels, chariots for elephants and flamethrowers for steppe lancers.
This conceptualization really clean my mind. Thank you so much.
In this sense Hand Cannoneer and current Elephant can never be trash unit (even elephant in Malay level is still too strong as a trash unit). For EA if that EA is like Genitour which throw spear maybe it is viable.
Mangonel is not possible and Scorpion maybe possible without Siege Engineers or even Chemistry. Petard also can be possible with a large creation time and no Siege Engineers.
sorry, how do you get from “trash units need trash counters” to this conclusion?
EA are countered by skirms and halbs, and mangonels are countered hard by Hussar. Scorpion is a problem because in large numbers it can counter cav too.
And then there’s the problem that the entire premise is flawed; Malay 2Hswordmen counter all trash units. Sure hussar can do ok against them, but they’re hardly a soft counter, and not all civs have hussar and that’s not a problem.
Trash Camels (115 food) for Ethiopians with Castle Age UU tech. Ethiopians doesn’t have bloodlines and last armor upgrade. It will be balanced.
In return Halberdier tech will be removed from Ethiopians tech tree and Shotel Warrior creation time decreased from 8 seconds to 6 seconds.
I’d rather have Halbs and subpar camels that still cost gold. This seems like unnecessarily harsh.
Ethiopians Camels are worse than subpar. 75% of civs have Halberdier and go Arbalest+Halberdier in Imperial Age. I am trying to give distinctive opiton to Ethiopians comparing to other civs (especially Britons). Otherwise, Ethiopians is okay civ.
I understand your plan but this bonus would fit better on a brand new civ especially to entice more African expansion.
but why would they go for camels? like seriously? they get free pike and halbs complement their army very well, n2m the potential for halb + siege pushes.
yeah, that seems like just a nerf across the board. this is just a terrible idea.
seems like more of a nerf then a buff to me to be honest.
so do that with a civ that actually could complement their camels with their arbs. not by forcing a civ with completely garbage camels to go for them. n2m it conflicts COMPLETELY with their free pike upgrade and of course, strong siege.
Yes, a harsh nerf.
I think trash camels can be interesting.
If they have the last armor they can be quite good vs skirms and therefore pair well with arbs.
Ok, technically don’t, but bizantines’ camels already are kind of a trash camel…
I actually have more the impression of trash knights with poles tbh…
Why don’t make Imperial Skirmisher only unique to the Vietnamese (and potential Chams)?
I think the current 20-year-old default tech tree of no Imperial Skirmishers can be considered balanced. If most civilizations have it directly, I worry it is just an unnecessary buff.
Isn’t the purpose of making the civilization weak against archers?
So making it only cost wood doesn’t drastically affect the balance.
That means they would at least lose Siege Ram.
Trash Heavy Camel with last armor is OP. It is almost as good as Hussar against Arbalest, Hussar tanks 24 shots, Heavy Camel tanks 20 shots. It will be also better against every melee units Halberdier and other infantries. Hussar is significantly cheaper, yes, but Camel must be very weak against archers like Halberdier in exchange for +18 bonus attack against Cav. Trash Camel is Halberdier replacement, thus missing last armor upgrade comply with Halberdier’s taking +3 attack from archers.
I think this is good idea but 60f is too low. 90f (or 110f and 33% trample damage) would be balanced and will be good option for Poles.
It does make sense. Both other generic trash unit lines have 3 upgrade levels. Skirmishers could be the same.
Trash camels are easily within the realm of possibility. With no heavy upgrade, the last armor and attack missing and the trash tech as the imperial unique tech they may if anything be too weak.
It would still kind of suck for paladin and hussar civs probably, but not really any harder than halberdiers do.
I htink trash knight is already here which is Magyar Huszar maybe?