They might move a bit too fast (at least after the UT) but apart from that the unit is totally fine. I’m using them a lot on arena, people just don’t know what do against it. There is a lot of compositions bohemians have very little answer to. The key unit vs the civ in general and wagons in particular is siege ram. Make good amount of siege ram and wagons do nothing. Vs small numbers redemption monks are great.
This is my solution:
- Base Hussite Wagon speed decreased from 0.85 to 0.77, giving Mangonels a better chance to land shots. After Wagenburg Tactics it now has a speed of 0.8855, letting archers effectively outrun it.
There is no problem.
Basically, Hussite wagons are super hard to stop. They hard counter any archer civ, and can dive under castles easily. They are supposedly countered by siege, but they far outrun a mangonel. They outrun archers as well, making a lot of problems. Although heavy cav can counter them rather well. They are still very fast, with high health and damage. They also have better monks and spears. If the speed gets nerfed, mangonels could be a viable counter, archers can actually run away and be somewhat possible, and heavy cav can easily chase them down.
I think Hussite wagons should have more counter besides mangonels and bombard cannon. Like scorpions should also have bonus damage against it and its bolt is unaffected by its ability. Most archer civs don’t have good siege. So maybe skirmisher can also have bonus damage.
It’s funny that a few months ago, there was a thread yelling that War Wagon is OP, but after that, Devs release superior version of War Wagon.
Hussite wagon have 50 more HP than War Wagon, similar or slightly higher DPS, need redemption to convert (WW doesn’t require it). War wagon has cavarly archer armor class, and Hussite wagon has seige and their own armor class to get bonus damage from Mangonel.
War wagon receive bonus damage from very wide damage of unit including skirms, halbs, camels. Hussite wagon receive bonus damage from only seige and a few UU (Mangudai, Magyar Hussar). Maybe WW has a bit more mobility, but just barely faster than halbs to escape from bad fight, they will destroy by Melee Cavarly.
I am not sure whether Hussite Wagon is OP or not. But we can admit that War Wagon is actually trash in most 1v1 situation if Hussite Wagon is acceptable kind of unit.
Hussite wagons are underwhelming, as an Archer civ, you always have Knights with 2 armors (at least), sometimes even Bloodlines, I don’t see how they are a problem for archer civs.
Early Castle Age eco can’t support more than a handful of Hussite Wagons because they cost too much wood, I am fairly sure equal number of knights beat them always.
I guess give them an armor class that cause them to take more damage from siege
They do take bonus damage from Onagers, Rams and Bombard Cannons. Just not from Scorpions or Organ Guns. Adding the Ram armor class would fix that.
Organ guns don’t really have much anti ram bonus damage. Conquistadors, janissaey, and handcannons have more, especially spanish uu With +6.
Yep, and the bonus damage from all those would be a good change IMO. Organ guns only have 1 bonus damage, but that may be enough to balance the two siege UU’s. I’ll have to test later, possibly it could go up to 2, but they’re not far off.
@Geojak92 I thought Organ Guns were better against in practice than the numbers showed, so I did a little testing and found out a few things. Apparently the bonus damage to rams does absolutely nothing, the main shot deals only 1 damage to rams with or without bonus damage. However Organ Guns are pretty good against rams because the 4 additional projectiles deal 2 damage each, and the ram hitbox is large. This means that Organ Guns randomly deal anywhere from 1 to 9 damage to rams per shot, with the higher numbers becoming more common as the ram gets closer.
That being said, adding the ram armor class to Hussite Wagons would slightly affect their fight against Organ Guns because their pierce armor is not high enough to negate all the OG attack. However, I was way off in my estimate of how much bonus damage would be needed. 1 or 2 bonus damage has almost no effect on 250 HP Hussite Wagons. Even when I give Organ Guns 10 bonus damage against the HW, and use equal resources (15 wagons vs 18 organs) the wagons still win easily. I don’t think there’s an easy solution to this one, and I’m starting to think OP might be right about the HW being a little too strong.
They are a huge problem for archer civs. Archer civs tend to play archers, because most of the rest of their tech tree isn’t normally as good, cav in particular. Hussite Wagons have insane pierce armor, as well as outrunning almost every type of foot archer. They also have really high health and damage. On top of that, Bohemians also tend to go for some type of ranged unit as well, with the early chemistry and stuff. That ends up making them heavily anti-archer. And if the archer player goes for their typically suboptimal cav, well, Bohemians have spears with more bonus damage, and really good monks to deal with that. They really are quite anti-archer as a civ, and the wagons are a big part of that.
just don’t be shy and make knights, monks or siege against them.
Only because you are an archer civ it doesn’t mean you have to make only units you have fu.
I actually like the idea to have things a bit mixed up there. Maybe the game can shift even more into that direction with UUs that perform quite well against one of the two main lines but bad against the other.
Bohemians actually show that this is possible. Bohemians (opposed to sicilians) have no clear advantage or disadvantage based only on if a civ is an archer or knight civ. And I think it comes down to that they have the hussite wagon and a bit better spear line. One is good against archers the other against knights, so they have tools against both power units, but neither of them is overpowered.
I like the depth the hussite wagon brings to the game. Besides I think right now it’s actually a bit weak cause most already figured out how to stop them, so you can’t really surprise anybody anymore.
Then don’t make Organ Guns against Hussite Wagons?
Make bombard cannons, or cavaliers. Portuguese have 60 gold FU cavaliers and more than accurate bombard cannons.
Why should Organ Gun do extra damage vs Hussite Wagon? It is not designed for that.
Sure, cavaliers do better. Just natural to compare the unique siege units, and there is a notable gap in their power. Mangonels do ok in Castle Age, but sending Onagers or Cannons out after Bohemians field Houfnice is a bad idea.
Also seems intuitive that HW would take bonus damage from the same things as rams (armored rolling wooden boxes), which would include most gunpowder units like the Organ Gun.
I’m not saying you should go Organ Guns against Wagons, clearly you should not. Just strange how much better the HW is, and likely part of the reason that Bohemians have a better win rate than Portuguese. It also helps that Bohemians have S tier halberdiers, while Ports have slow Halberdiers that wont save the OG from cav flanking.
TBH organ gun is in most cases a very bad unit. There are some occasions where it can be quite strong, but in general it’s a bad UU and could use some love.
Idk, i think organ guns should have a very high firerate and less attack. Then they could work as a slow, but high damage support unit that needs some protection against cavalry, monks and siege.
I think husstie wago is just a bad matchup for them aswell (as it is with various other units).
You don’t know hussite wagons at all, it ‘s not commonly used on maps except arena, monks are totally counter for hussite wagons in castle age. your idea is base on your low level absolutely.