I think posting this in the Discussion is a bit off from me because there is nothing to be discussed here. So for your information, it has become fact that Hussite Wagons are OP.
This isn’t a discussion. It is just information that the balance team did a bad job with this unit.
Thread can be closed now
What are you using to counter them? Pretty much any archer is a bad idea, since they have 10 Pierce Armor like Huskarls. Mangudai can do ok, but fast-moving melee units are a better choice. Almost any cavalry will do the job cost-effectively, but if they’re protected by spears you’ll be better off with something like Woad Raiders, Eagles, Samurai, etc. If they have a large mass of wagons a few Onager shots can be used to soften them up, and Bombard Cannons or Monks can pick off wagons to reduce the numbers.
Only counter is themselves
and a few Unique Units
Just by comparing the with War Wagons you know they are OP
Reduce HP from 200 to 180 in castle age
For elite is only 220 HP
The unit is way too tanky so even mangonels aren’t a counter
Also they could be way slower but wagenburg tactics buffed in compensation.
Reduce war wagon attack in castle age to 7
.and remove the extra attack vs buildings by design, also make them to take extra damage from skirms so skirms are a true counter.
yeah it could affect all gunpowder and HW differently… similar to PT…
wtf is up with this forum and referencing old videos? and using what a pro said in a match as gospel?
gosh guys, well done on providing good supporting evidence…
here’s some slightly better evidence
goly gosh bohemians must
War Wagons are a cavalry archer. Of course they lose to the Huskarl-on-wheels.
I don’t disagree about them being hard to counter. One change I would consider is adding the Ram armor class to the Hussite Wagon. This would allow bonus damage from a variety of units, including Scorpions, Hand Cannoneers, and several unique units like Organ Guns, Conquistadors, Slingers and Janissaries.
In general I don’t think HW are overpowered though. Take a look at this video to see which units are cost effective against them.
No you duck-duck - comparing Stats
This thing is a freaking Hand Cannoneer with 200 HP, not costing Food
They don’t even need that “Shield” ability and they are still broken
I don’t find the shield ability particularly useful tbh. How often are players microing focus fire to the units behind the wagons?
Their stats do look good compared to War Wagons, but consider they fire slower (especially after thumb ring),move slower (even after UT), cost more, and have shorter range than the WW.
Edit: I was surprised to see that the HW with Wagenburg Tactics is still slower than a Feudal spearman (no squires) or a swordsman (with squires), barely beating a foot archer in speed.
As a person who plays bohemians every day I have to say that hussite wagons is the unit I have used the least and that they are pretty weak.
I have very probably made more houfnices than hussite wagons.
Much weaker, slower than a korean war wagon, while also more expensive- and this is just the castle age stats. In imp it’s not even a contest which one is better.
They are only useful to scare off archers and even then, you need a castle, they don’t deal any damage whatsoever, are countered by mangonels pretty hard, as well as any melee unit.
I’d rather use skirmishers to counter archer units in the castle age, and houfnices in imperial. And the shielding ability is even more situational than tatar 50% hill bonus damage, on par with magyars killing wolves with one strike.
Trash busters is what they are, like a siege ram that deals a bit of damage and moves faster.
Bohemians are perfectly balanced across all maps, even on the weaker side on open maps, and on closed maps it’s not the hussite wagons that make them stand out- it’s the monks and the houfnices, as intended.
Why only comparing to war wagons. Try a direct comparison to organ guns. It’s just sad
I tried going mass organ guns against mass hussite wagons recently in an arena game. It did not end well for me
This is one reason I think adding the ram armor class would help. Organ guns should be able to take down HW cost effectively and right now that is not the case. I’m completely fine with HW beating archers and slow-moving infantry, but they should not counter a slower gunpowder siege unit.
Well, Organ Gun is 80W 56G, Hussite Wagon 110W 70G, no wonder you got shredded if we talk about equal numbers, but assuming equal numbers you spent a lot less resources.
Thing is, even mass Organ Gun is not a good composition for an army, I don’t know why so many people try to do that with Portuguese, Organ guns are clunky, with minimum range, low accuracy without Arquebus and they do pisspoor damage against buildings.
Instead of going, say, 40 Organ guns as core army is much better to go 20 cavaliers 30 hand cannoneers/35 arbs. It’s roughly the same gold but they cover eachother much better and are not hard countered by siege rams and onagers.
Organ Guns are not designed to kill other siege, their supposed role is cavalry support against infantry, with reasonable performance against archers and skirms.
Castle age is another story, but even then unless you castle drop (cause they’re painfully slow), I fail to see how massed organ guns is better than massed knights, for even fewer resources.
Hussite Wagons are maybe a bit too fast imho, but that’s easily solvable: just lower the base speed a bit.
Ah, I should clarify. I mean with equal resources HW still beats OG. I agree cavalier would have been the winning move, but I needed a quick tech switch from archers after the HW’s caught them off guard. I had no cav upgrades or stables, but had full wood + gold eco and a few castles ready and already unlocked Siege Engineers. Even with some Bombard Cannons mixed in the Hussite Wagons were victorious, their mobility was too much for the OG + BC.
Regardless of that one example, I believe the OG with it’s minimum range, slow speed, and lack of defensive capability should be able to beat the HW.
Based on what?
It’s like saying that Ballista Elephant since it’s slow, expensive as hell, with low range, with all possible malus (negative armor rating, multiple armor classes) should be able to beat Paladins 1v1.
Organ Gun sucks against siege, why should it be able to beat Hussite Wagons? I don’t think it makes sense unit wise.
Now if Hussite Wagon could beat Paladins 1v1 then we would have a problem, but it doesn’t seem the case. They lose even to cavaliers (and not even FU), which are stable units that cost even less resources overall.
Organ Gun is vulnerable against Siege, but when it is in range it brings enemy siege down quickly. Why would the Hussite Wagon be more anti-siege than the OG? In general there is a nice balance between mobility and strength. Faster units can choose not to take fights and are slightly weaker, slower units have no escape and are made stronger. There are countless examples of this in the game: Spears can run from Skirmishers, Cavalry can run from Spears, Cav Archers can run from Skirmishers, Spears can run from Swordsmen, Swordsmen can run from Teutonic knights, Archers can run from Onagers, Scouts can run from Eagles. There is a sort of balance when two units collide and one is strong, while the other is fast. Sure it’s not universal (Knights beat archers, Scouts beat monks), but it’s a nice touch where possible.
For your Paladin example, I think it’s more appropriate to compare the Battle Elephant. Cav vs cav (similar to siege vs siege), and in fact the slow strong unit beats the faster one, but obviously the Paladin can choose not to take that fight.
Similarly I think its fine for HW to beat the War Wagon because the WW has the option to leave.
Well, you are clearly talking about Hussite Wagon speed here (which is 15% faster than Organ Gun after the UT is researched), there I might agree.
But I see no relations between HW and Organ Gun. Organ Gun is a unit that supports others, not taking the front line, HW is the opposite, and acts as a meatshield so I don’t see a particular relationship between the two that can warrant that one should beat the other. And obviously HW beats the Organ Gun because it has much more health and armor, but again, if you are using OGs correctly you wouldn’t charge with them in the frontline, so the problem is not even there, you would charge with cavalry/heavy infantry and pound their support units with Organs.
However to stay even more on topic: HW are beaten cost effectively not only by heavy cavalry, but even by FU halbs and champions. For much lower gold cost (or no cost at all).
Then of course they’re shredded (cost effectively) by Eagles and Winged Hussars as well.
Organ Gun is destroyed even by the War Wagon, with no possibility to escape
Interesting. I think the only time I’ve attempted barracks infantry vs HW was another Portuguese game. Their champions lack squires and as a result they were shredded by the Hussite Wagons before they could close the gap, even in large numbers. Generic FU or maybe something like Celt or Malian champs would probably do better, but I can’t state that from personal experience or tests.
Anyway, I don’t mean to imply I think HW are too strong. IMO their speed and combat effectiveness are fine. Just the one example against organ guns felt a little off IMO.
You’re right about that. Ok my issue may be more of an Organ Gun complaint than anything regarding Hussite Wagons
You tried every possible unit except the best you had
Portuguese champions are a pain, even if they cost less gold, they walk so slow I often think I’m lagging
Obviously tech switches on the fly are not easy, though.
I still think HW could maybe be made less fast, instead of 0.85 of base speed devs could try 0.80 or 0.75, mainly to avoid mangonel shots so easily since the UT speed is in castle age.
Organ Guns imho are fairly weak now, but people say they’re fine (except Geojak :D). So maybe I’m the one with the wrong impression.
Oh the champion game IIRC was actually a transition from Knights. There were just so many enemy Bohemian Halberdiers on the field by that point that I couldn’t continue using cavalry. Can’t really go archers or hand cannons against spears when the wagons are out, so champ was maybe my best option. Still went poorly, but I have no issue with how that game played out.
And yeah, Port slow infantry is painful to use. I struggle with their Halberdiers as well. I don’t know why I keep trying to make that civ work on land maps tbh. There’s just something fun about trying to find viable builds for the worst civ, and they have a nice tech tree and gold bonus, along with the feitorias that can be fun in post imperial 1v1.