Gambeson armor tech affect on unique units

Yes I realized that’s the main question. KW used to be better than militia line against archers. Now that is not the case. I have no idea to propose a tweak where I can confidently say KW won’t be broken in any situation. So I’ll just make them better against eagle as no matter how much PA you get, militia line can’t chase eagle anyway.

I don’t think this should generally come for all infantry UU, most of them already have 2PA or get it with Elite. Possibly 1PA for Elite Woad Raider.

I’d say exact opposite. So that they don’t compete with militia line. Rather have different role.

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I think this addition will be similar to the introduction to Supplies in DE, in that it is great for the Swordsmen at the Barracks, but will hurt a few infantry Unique Units.

It should be fine for: the Huskarl, the Teutonic Knight, the Kamayuk, the Serjeant, the Ghulam, the Chakram Thrower and the Obuch.

It should probably be fine for the Beserk too, especially given the faster health regeneration. Hard to tell for Gbetos and Shotel Warriors, who are also being adjusted in this patch. Urumi Swordsmen should also be rather unaffected.

It may hurt the Throwing Axemen, but because they are not very popular already, it is a bit harder to tell.

It would I think really hurt the Jaguar Warrior, the Samurai, the Woad Raider and the Karambit Warrior. These units had it quite bad over the years, and I don’t quite think it is getting better. Their Castle Age version were buffed, which is great, but it is not quite enough.

Here are suggestions for them:

  • Jaguar Warrior: -5f, -5g (to 55f, 25g). Elite Jaguar Warrior +3 attack infantry. Elite upgrade -300f.
    My reasoning: they are already strong against infantry, but are overshadowed by all other DPS infantry. Let them wreck even more efficiently!

  • Samurai: -5f, -5g (to 55f, 25g). Buff speed to 1.05 (from 1). Elite +1 Melee Armour, +1 attack (to 13).

  • Woad Raiders: -5g (to 65f, 20g). Normal/Elite +1 Pierce Armour.

  • Karambit Warrior: I am unsure, as they now get the Infantry armour upgrades for free. Perhaps only buffing the Elite version of +1 attack would be decent?

Gbeto, Chakram and Thx are totally different unit from militia line. Buffing militia line won’t hurt the other. Not to mention other than Thx, none of them got Gambeson anyway.

Similarly, other than TK and Serjeant, no one got Gambeson. I disagree about Serjeant. They are in a tougher spot than before.

So this leave us with these units - Samurai, WR, Berserker, JW, KW and Urumi.

Maybe you should add Urumi as well. Yes they are still better at melee but seems pretty expensive.

I dont think +1PA can make swordsman compete with archers. But +1 PA for WR and Samurai can be different. Both of them are faster than swordsman. Celts is used to have poor cavalry and WR with +1 PA can be a better alternative to chase archers. Samurai can potentially kill more ranged UU and currently good enough to kill melee UU.

I meant Samurai and WR competing against Champion as players won’t choose the UU that is locked behind a castle. Both of their speed comes with a huge cost and Samurai’s speed is not even worthy to mention that they are any better than Champion when Gambeson is added. Champion taking 2 extra arrows from Arbalester is more than enough to remove Samurai play from the game imho. WR may still be alive as Celts tech tree is really poor.

Not really. You need Eagle, Huskarl, Ghulam like PA to actually counter any archer unit.

I think Samurais with or without that effect will still be niche for Japanese as they don’t justify the cost difference in most situations.
It’ll be a good change for the updated shotels, urumi swordsmen, karambits and jaguars.
With automatic regeneration, gold from killings, it might be a bit too much for Berserkers.
For a unit like woad raider this could be massive and would drastically change the imperial age gameplay. Maybe the siege bonus might have to be adjusted for balance purposes.

So what do you mean by different role with 1 more melee armor? WR would have exactly the same melee armor as swordsman. With 33% faster atk speed, swordsman wont be too bad compared to samurai

What do you mean? None of them except Shotel got a change.

Gambeson will make militia line better against ranged units. So UU infantry should be better against melee units. That’s a simplified version of my suggestion. You can find the details of my proposal a bit at the top of this thread.

Sorry I meant hypothetically if they were to get impacted by gambeson…

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That’s same for most unique units…theybare situational. Think about Chu Ko Nu vs arbs, Leitis vs paladin, Tarkan vs Paladin, plumed archer vs arbs, Longbow vs arbs, etc…

The point Is i don’t think woads or any infantry UU should be just a stronger champion as It Is now, but that every UU should have a unique niche. Like if woads have higher bonus vs Building and maybe generates Gold while attacking Building (like a Raider) then It would already be unique and worth the effort.

The same goes for jaguars or samurai or others


Jaguar: I would make it double down on its role as vs. Infantry
Elite + 1 MA / +2 attack vs. Infantry / +5% movement speed

WR: It should become an actual raiding unit
It could get the same gold generation as a Keshik, but against buildings and not units
Elite + 1PA

Samurai: Don’t know what other role than “A better champion” this unit could/should fill
Elite +1MA +1PA / + 5% movement speed

Personally I’m of the opinion, that its fine if a UU is a flat out better version of a generic unit (Mangudai, Magyar Hussar, …) and/or a better value for money version of a generic unit (Keshik), so that it makes the generic unit pretty much pointless or reduces their relevancy to rare niche cases.
Like you pretty much never go for generic CA as Mongols, I would be fine if the UUs of some of these civs got buffed to the point of relegating the Champion line to very rare usecases (for example: Eagle spam).

As some here suggested cost reduction for these units, which I would be in favor of, if they’d keep their current stats. However I rather increase their stats and make them a “premium” version of the Champion.
It also suits them better, since as castle units they are less spamable.
Like you could either go for the cheap Champion, or go for the more expensive Jaguar, which does everything a champion does, but also chews through enemy infantry.
I guess what I mean is, that their specialist niche doesn’t have to be offset by being a worse generalist than the champion.

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Okay but we shouldn’t make them harder to effort to such a degree that they are not viable. Also one of them, Karambit, is supposed to be spammable.

For Karambit I’m not sure where to go with this unit anyway. For me their only usecase is an emergency defense for the castle. I much rather go with trash THS than Karambit for my infantry flood, which are now even better.
I mean sure there are cases where one or the other unit is better, but in general I feel they are too similar in usecase to each other.

For the other UUs, I’m not suggesting to increase their cost. I have often read here and other parts of the internet that the costs for UUs like the Jag, Woad, etc. need to come down. That is even before this patch, since with supplies they already were in a relatively worse spot when it comes to value/money compared to Champions, which is now even more true.
They kind of (partitially) fixed the castle age versions a few updates ago.
Now what I’d advocate is to remain the costs as they are, but rather buff the units stat-wise, to differentiate it even more from the Champion.
Also I think the UU should be the go-to unit even for Champion-role tasks. I’d rather have for these civs the champion being relegated to a niche usecae rather than the UU.

Generale speaking, the UU is a variant of the existing regular unit but with a clear area of expertise or a “thing”, but the regular unit tende to be easier to afford (no Castle needed). Or is a substitute on a regular unit.

Infantry UU tend instead to just be improved Champions with higher cost, which kills them cause Champions is always more cost effective in the long term. Only advantage infantry UU have is the cheaper/faster upgrade to imp with 1 upgrade instead of 4

But the more militia get unique stuff, the more this discrepancy tightens, making It increasingly more worthy to invest in Champions over infantry UU

So you either buff UU to the point Champions are not usable (which would be equally bad) or make the UU have a clear niche or particular use

Understandable. This is one of the trickiest unit to use.

Isn’t it the opposite? Now militia line needs 6 techs compared to only 1 from UU. So there is some advantage to use UU over generic Champion.

Yeah infact as i’ve sayd the advantage is you need less upgrades, and sometimes is worth it sometimes not, but It all comes down to just upgrades cost which is another flaw of militia line, not a plus of the UU itself.

For example, i would like to se THS and Champion upgrade be made a bit cheaper at some point, as the while upgrade from militia ti champion resemble paladin in cost which is insane imho.

Suppose that change appen, then militia line could be considered improved by removing this flaw, that should be remove, but would leave UUs in a even worse state, since their “thing” was merely to be cheaper.

On the other hand, if UUs had a unique niche that champion could not possibly replicate, like obuch remove armor, then no possible buff to militia would hurt that niche of the unit

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The other thread has been unlisted for some reason.

Only UU that doesn’t have this disadvantage at all is Condo. And Italians not getting Gambeson is probably a good thing so that you will always pick Condo over Champion.