Gambeson armor tech affect on unique units

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
1

Pretty decent tech, it gives the militia line one pierce armor. (and not every civs get the tech) However, Champion alternative units like the Samurai, Woad Warrior and etcetera may be somewhat less viable now. Granted, it does not make much of a difference for a unit like the Teutonic Knight (the Teutonic Knight is not really a champion) It could be problematic if they were affected by the same tech, since a Teutonic Knight is a very different unit to a champion. Far slower speed, far more health, and far more attack.

But what are your thoughts?

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What are you saying here, would it not make a difference for units like TK or would it be problematic?

Those two things dont really go together, a change that does not make a difference can’t be problematic.

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3

I’d just give buff to those UU infantries instead of putting another burden of 100f/100g cost.

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A Teutonic Knight is a very different unit to a champion. Far slower speed, far more health, and far more attack.

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5

I know, but you didnt answer the question. Your initial statment does not make sense (its a self-contradiction) and you probably by accident did not write what you meant, so i just asked to make your statment clear.

6

If you buff militia line by itself without any additional changes to infantry UU, the differentiation between these units will be less so there is less incentive to invest in UUs since they are not that stronger compared to militia and they require castles to produce.

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7

Imho its good that it does not affect UUs. Let the patch play out for a few months and maybe situationally buff UUs that need it.

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8

Another thing is I’ll give those infantry UU a different role than militia line. Since Gambeson gives 1 extra PA, I’d focus on melee performance.

Samurai - Cost reduced 60f/30g → 50f/30g. Samurai MA increased 1 → 2.

WR - Elite WR cost reduced 1000f/800g → 800f/700g. WR cost changed 65f/25g → 70f/15g and HP increased 65, 80 → 75, 85

Berserk - No change. Vikings lose Gambeson or Chieftain doesn’t affect militia line.

JW - Cost reduced 60f/30g → 55f/25g. Speed increased 1.00 → 1.10.

SW - Standard SW PA increased 0 → 1.

KW - Elite KW attack bonus vs Eagle increased 2 → 3.

Serjeant - Cost reduced 60f/35g → 55f/30g. Elite Serjeant attack increased 11 → 12.

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Yeah I think the most affected infantry UUs will be WR and KR since they don’t have any specific bonus damage nor niche.

WR statewide are so similar to champion but faster and now with less PA.

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While that sounds ideal, from our knowledge and experience of 23 and half years (Crazy, right?), we can have a good guess on which UUs are now having an existential crisis and there is little to no reason to delay buffing them.

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11

Agreed. If the milicia line is overshadowing the UU too much, I’d rather buff the UU for free instead of being a tech.

For me UU should be more viable on castle drop based maps, where you can use (infantry or ranged) UU without having to spend too much on techs.

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12

Not sure if this new tech could be added to every UU, but i’m not even sure why it should not. After all, if is something you pay for it’s not a free buff.

Probably, It would just be better to improve the base UU without this tech, making It cheaper. Most of those infantry UU could use a price cut anyway

On the other hand, why if i’m celts should i invest into woads when Champions are MUCH better against buildings, less expensive, and now even better against archers? For a bit less Speed, i would always go for champion

But this is a problem of woads not being particularly useful in any given niche. Imho infantry UU should have something that champion cannot possibly have, like serjeants Building donjons thing or obuch remove armor or kamayuks range (and even serjeants could use a price discount even after this buff, to probably 60F 30G instead of 35G

13

This unit snowballs pretty fast. Be careful when you buff them. Since they cost half pop space, you need to double their HP, damage and cost to compare it with one pop unit. Hard to estimate the attack at a fixed value but you can consider it double for an easy calculation.

80 HP, 1/1 armor, 2*(8+4-MA of enemy unit) = roughly 17 attack at a cost of 50f/30g. Sounds really solid to me. For comparison, Shotel cost the same, same speed, almost same TT. They have 1 more attack but 30 less HP and 1 less MA.

14

I would invest into them if I am transiting out of knights or xbows. Or when I castle drop. Then I dont need to resrch maa and LS, and make 2 mire barracks. Also to raid civs with good anti-cavalry options. Maybe also against eagles raids and to snipe bbc ?

Anyways, the unit is in a weird spot as it “needs” a cheap counter. Eagles got champions, knights got halberdiers, rsnge units got skims and hussars, champions had a “speed weakness”.
So if woads get buffed to have better stats than champions, I’d like them to lose something. A potential tweak would be to nerf HP and damage, but buff pierce armor and bonus damage against eagles and maybe archers. Then they become some kind of eagle, but stronger against eagles (and champions) but weaker against cavalry.

Woads are fine but not very attractive.

15

I think being countered (in terms of resources) by basically every gold unit in the game is bad enough. Even militia line is better than them in combat because they are cheaper (someone correct me if I’m wrong here).

Plus, they are bound to castles and Celts knights, arbs and skirms are really bad.

Still, I would still prefer non stat buffs to the WR, like recieving reduced damage from buildings and/or siege

16

Yeah I understand. My main questions is, how better is KW spam compared to trash militia with the new tech?

I think they are too similar and it’s more of a math problem than a strategic one which I don’t think it’s healthy gamewise. Investing in KW and militia line should have a clear distinction.

But maybe I’m wrong and they might be already different enough

17

where can I find the patch leaks?

In any case, if it does indeed give +1 PA, it’s a brilliant change by the devs, because it will allow some civs to get strong Champions (Dravidians for example), while others that don’t need buffs won’t get the tech and will still feel same as now, where Champion is a “potentially good” option, that you never truly tech into. For example, Chinese could go Champion to counter full Halb Skirm. Without Gambeson those champs will feel “good enough”, while Dravidians will potentially play Champs vs Arbalest, too.

I would also like to see a bonus vs Scout line (starting from LS), which would allow Champs to maintain some pop efficiency in low-gold scenarios where they are meant to shine but where they currently get outclassed by Hussar.

The main problem with Hussar atm is that if you start mixing Halb to your Champs, it starts to be a VERY pop-inefficient comp, and the opponent can either raid you, or suicide the Hussar and make an Arbalest/HC switch and sort of win the game on the spot with a big Treb push.

Then again, each Gold unit is meant to have a Trash counter and maybe Hussar “countering” Champs is an intended interaction: after all, Halb counters Knight-line but is weak vs the other 2 gold units, Skirm counters Archer-line but is weak vs the other 2 gold units, so the fact that Hussar counters Champs but is weak vs Knight-line and (to a degree) Arbalest is perhaps indended.

In any case, +1 PA seems like going in the right direction, I am glad the devs are going for this, and not for a buff like +speed, Funnily if Champs are viable in Imp, people will start massing LS in Castle age too, potentially, just like now you mass Knights in Castle age if your civ has good Imp upgrades, and you don’t commit to Knights if your civ has bad Knights in Imperial Age (e.g. Mongols).

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Source: reddit Reddit - Dive into anything

https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe2/comments/12166ik/all_balance_changes_i_noticed_in_april_pup/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

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General

-NEW TECH Gambesons.Militia line gets +1 pierce armor

-Elite Steppe lancer base pierce armor is 2(previously 1)

-Pikeman upgrade cost now is 160f 90g (previously 215f 90g)

-Eagle line cost 25f 50g (previously 20f50g )

-Elite Elephant Archer upgrade cost 800w 500g (previously 1000f 800g )

-Heavy scorpion upgrade costs 800f900w (previously 1000f 1100w)

-Siege elephant upgrade costs 850f(previously 650f)

-Sappers grants villagers +3 damage against rams

Civ Specific

-Celts. Stronghold Castles now also heal infantry units around castles in 7 tiles

-Bengalis. New bonus Cavalry +2 damage against Skirmishers.

Mahayana monks now also takes 10% less pop space.

-Byzantines.Greek fire now also grants +5 blast damage to bombard towers

-Berber. Vills move only 5% faster in dark.Still 10% in feudal

-Bohemians. Hussite reforms cost reduced to 500f 450g(previously #### 450g)

-Britons. TB Archery ranges work 10% faster(previously 20%)

-Burgunidians. Flemish Revolution Now Flemish militia trains in barracks

Base cost now is 200f 150g +10f +5g for each villager(previously 1200f 650g)

Flemish militia is now costs 50f 15g(previously 60f 25g), 60hp, 11 attacks, 1/0 armor (previously 75hp 12 attack 1/1 armor)

-Burmese.Elite arambai upgrade cost 1000f 750g(previously 1100f 675g)

-Chinese. Now start wtih +2 vills but -150f and -50w(previously +3 vills but -200f and -50w)

-Dravidians Siege weapons costs 33% less wood

-Ethiopians. Royal Heirs rework. Now

Camel units and Shotel warriors gets -3 damage from mounted units.

TB outposts now also costs no stone

-Gurjaras. Shrivamsha riders now cost 70f30g(previously 70f 20g).Kshatriyas now cost 500f 450g(previously 200f 450g)

-Goths Hunts lasts 20% longer

-Huns. Atheism costs 500f300w(previously 500f 500g)

-Incas. Military units costs -15%(dark)-20%(feudal)-25%(castle)-30%(imp)less food.

New

TB Start with llama.(previously +2 LOS for skirms and pikes)

Andean Slings now also grants Slingers +1 attack.

Slinger base cost 40f40g(previously 30f 40g).Kamayuk Base cost 65f30g(previously 60f 30g)

-Japanese. Kataparuto costs 550w 300g(750w 400g)

-Lithunians. Now each town center provides 100f(previously +150f at start)

-Malay. New bonus Infantry armor upgrades free

-Malians. Villager now drop off 15% more gold(previously gold mines lasts 30% longer)

-Poles. Villages doesnt regenerate in dark age

-Sicilians. Castles builts 50% faster,TCs still 100%(lol).(previously 100% for each)

First crusade cost 400f300g and spawns only 5 serjeants per tc. (previously #### 600g and 7 serjeants per tc)

Donjons can train pike line now too.

Elite serjeant costs 800f675g(previously 1100f 875g)

-Slavs. Gambesons free.

Boyars cost 60f70g.(previously 50f80g)

Druzhina costs 900f500g(previously 1200f 500g)

-Spanish. New bonus Receive 20 gold for each researched tech.

(non elite)Conquistador base pierce armor 1(previously 2)

Inquisition now also granst +1 range to missionaires

-Turks. Artillery costs 600f650g(previously 450w 400g)

-Vietnamesse. Paper money cost 550F 200W(previously 600w 350g)

-Vikings. Chieftains Infantry now algo gets gold for killing vill(5g),trade units(20g) and monks(20g).

New Imperial UT Bogsweigar 650f 500g Archer line and Longboats gets +1 attack

-Portuguese. (elite)Organ gun base damage is 7(9) with 5(6) projectiles

A bit surprise Vikings get buff on archers.

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19

Increasing the base armor of those specific units directly will be easier. Samurai and WR should get +1PA.

21

thank you for the links.