Should alternative champion units like; Woad Raider, Berserk, Samurai, Jaguar Warrior, Urumi Swordsman, and possibly even Karambit Warrior get one extra pierce armor to offset the champion buff from Gambesons?
Imo, its ok for some of these units to get 1 p.armor from Gambesons - Urumi swordsman, Jaguars since they just functions as an alternative to champion in some situations with nearly the same stats. Probably a bit excessive for something like Woad raiders which are quite fast.
Not at all no. Not all those units are weak to begin with. I would make zerks over Champions any day even with gambesons for example.
Samurai, jaguars, and woads are another matter instead and they could benefit from +1 PA but i think It would be cooler to give those units a better quirk
Like woads increase their bonus vs building and make them generate Gold while fighting like keshik, or give them something cool, same goes for jags and samurai whos bonuses have proven to be niche at best
Jags could become faster for example, to actually counter infantry better
Other infantry units, like serjeants, don’t need 1 more PA probably, but still need a cost decrease or other sort of buffs to be viable
right now the charge bar isn’t there but the charge mechanic is there within 3 tiles. the only downside is that it requires manually targeting each enemy, with individuals of your own unit so it will be super micro intensive.
just patrol into enemy or attack move into them will not trigger this which is kinda sad tbh. they might be able to change this tho.
Berserks I think are viable without benefitting from Gambesons (they got a buff in that Berserkergang was rolled into the elite upgrade). Samurai I think would benefit more from extra movement speed or even receiving less damage from other Unique Units (which would double down on their unique aspect, though they still wouldn’t counter every UU). Jaguar Warriors are intended as an anti-infantry unit, a role that Gambesons would make more important even without them benefitting from it (since the other counters Aztecs have would become less viable). Urumi Swordsman are really strong in melee combat, so they should remain weak against archers. I don’t know about Karambit Warrior, but I don’t think they need to benefit from the +1 PA (probably too strong a benefit for them). The ranged infantry units don’t need the extra pierce armor either (like Jaguar Warriors, they tend to be good against other infantry units anyways).
Woad Raiders, I’m not certain how to compensate them to keep them viable in comparison to champs. The other unit that I could reasonably see receiving the +1PA from Gambesons is Condottiero, though I’d prefer they receive reduced damage from gunpowder units (to double down on their anti-gunpowder role), particularly since Italians didn’t receive Gambesons. Plus, Gambesons requires researching supplies first, which isn’t conducive to it benefitting other infantry units.
So in my opinion, no, champion alternatives shouldn’t receive the pierce armor from Gambesons. Some of them (such as Obuchs, and Serjeants) don’t need the buff to fulfill their role. Others are anti-infantry (a role that becomes more important as other anti-infantry counters become less useful against champions). And most of the remaining infantry UUs would be better off receiving a different buff that would further distinguish them from the champion line.
Yeah i agree, those units need something different each basically. Woads is the only one i think could get +1PA but Just because that would fit the “Raider” concept, but even that could be made better by extra bonus vs building (currently have less than militia line) and maybe generate Gold while fighting like a keshik, or some quirk related to siege
For samurai more speed would be ok but maybe they could be made into a cavalry unit instead, like mounted samurai. That way they could counter UU much better, and japanese already have decent cav upgrades, would spice up their gameplay quite a bit
On jags, yeah their role is counter infantry for sure, but they were untouched so it’s not like even if people start using infantry more they would suddenly be great. They would simply be the only think aztects have against infantry, but that does not mean they are good.
We could double down on their identity as infantry killers, and maybe make them weaker against missiles, lowering PA by 1 but giving them a bit more HP and +1 MA. That way they would be more melee oriented and well countered by archers, for which aztects have good skirms against
After Gambesons, they’re already worse vs. ranged units than champs. Definitely don’t think they need to lose PA under any circumstances - you’ll just make them a more specialized (niche) and worse unit overall - basically a more expensive Urumi that’s bad against cavalry and archers. Gaining 1 PA will make them more useful than losing 1 PA and gaining +1 MA and 15 HP.
I do like this though.
But yeah, this one-size-fits-all approach isn’t well calibrated to all infantry units and mostly they ought to be changed case-by-case.
Well if we just give then +1 PA they keep on being “stronger Champions” which we already seen in not enough to make them viable
My proposal would make them weaker against arrows, but by a slim margin (+5 HP and -1 pA means they would tank 1 less Arrow from FU arbalest…not that much) but be considerably better against infantry and cavalry (with 2 MA and 80 HP)
So yeah they would be a good choice if opponent is not on archers or is not a great Archer civ, giving them multiple match ups, not mere niche
They would also take 3 damage from Eskirm, and have much lower survivability vs ranged. I just don’t accept the premise that +1 MA and 5 HP are ample compensation for losing 1 PA, much less a buff. Perhaps you remember that Jags used to have 0 base PA, but that was changed - not to make them “stronger champions” or anti-archers, but because a decent baseline of PA is necessary for any unit with such a cost to allow it to survive long enough to be useful. I also don’t think that making them slightly less bad vs cavalry will help much; it’s rarely if ever going to tempt the Aztec player to make Jags instead of eagles, monks and pikes when facing cav.
Anyway, I don’t think their PA has to be changed. Something like Speed 1.0 → 1.075 and +5 HP might be enough.