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Armenians lose access to Fortified Church, but retain their free Relic bonus.
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Fortified Churches cost 100 wood only, and available starting in the Feudal Age. No change to FC tech tree.
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Monaspas take double the number of units to receive the buff. So instead of having 5 Monaspas/Knights in vicinity, they take 10. The upper cap is still the same at +4. Hence instead of talking only 21 units to reach the max limit, they take 41.
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Georgians start with -100 wood instead of -50 food.
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I also had the same thought. I think it would be way better if FC was an UB for Georgians. But I don’t see that is happening until Armenians become busted in Arena.
Good change. Like this.
Well, I think you’re making things unnecessarily complex. Just change the resource penalty from 50 food to 50 wood and that will be enough.
Their eco bonus is not only locked behind an expensive building, it is also locked behind Castle Age. To address these issues, the building costs -50% (taken from Bohemians), and is available in the Feudal Age. The building also provides space to garrison, enhancing their defensive tag in the Feudal Age (there are no defensive bonuses at that stage).
This feels unnecessary both from a design standpoint and a historical standpoint; the Armenians also built fortified religious buildings.
This also feels unnecessary.
Maybe this is a good idea, but it’s hard to tell. Monaspas are pretty strong as it is; this change might make them basically useless. Remember, they don’t have inherently good stats.
Just make the penalty 50 wood instead of food.
Some kind of shepherd bonus would also be useful for the Georgians, and as a further nod to the remote regions that focused on sheep and cattle.
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How about start with a Fortified Church instead of start with a Mule Cart? This way their shepherds, hunters, and some farmers work 10% faster. Then -100 wood would be justified.
That would be worse. The Fortified Church is big and it might obstruct something important.
3 Likes
You know that it can shoot arrows right
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Don’t care for it. Georgians should by no means lose their -50F start, it’s a key aspect of the civ, similar to Chinese. People just need to adapt, perhaps by using their mule cart to go for Huntables earlier.
Furthermore, their Fortified Churches are incredibly powerful; if they were easier to get universal coverage, they’d need to be MORE expensive, not less.
I think they need a big bonus to help them hold on until later.
What if they had this?
- Feudal Age Upgrade Cost -33%.
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This seems like a very odd point of view to me. The only reason to have a resource penalty is to avoid a bonus – and therefore a civ – being too strong. But Georgians clearly aren’t too strong. Personally, I’d remove the resource penalty completely, rather than change it to a wood penalty.
As for Chinese, their key aspect is the extra villagers – their resource penalty is just a fiddle to prevent them being overpowered. It makes no thematic or historical sense, and is only there for balance reasons.
2 Likes
There is another reason to have a resource penalty; to force a civ to play differently. If Georgians had a normal start, then they would be played normally, and the mule cart basically just used for scouting or something. But because they have an abnormal start, they have to approach games with a different mindset, which keeps the game fresh and interesting.
If they are weak, they should be compensated in other ways, NOT by removing their distinctly different start.
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The penalty should match the cost of the unit. I dont think mules cost 100f do they
To be fair, I did not remember the consequences of it, like similar to a TC drop, but then again, it shoots max 5 arrows compared to a TC’s 10. For the time being, we can remove the arrow shooting thing in the Feudal Age, so that it can garrison, but not shoot arrows.
I don’t know what exactly you try to tweak here…
For me Georgians have 3 issues:
A) The uncommon start that requires you to have special builds only for 1 out of 45 civs in the game which isn’t even that good
B) The mule cart that can’t be walled in
C) The complete reliance on the Monaspa to to actually win games
Ofc Monaspas are OP, but the civ just has nothing else really. So it needs to be OP.
So in order to tweak the Monaspas dow to not be that OP there needs to be something in compensation.
And btw -100 W is totally silly. Even if they get a mule cart for free, Also a blunt nerf, which I don’t really get cause for me Georgians don’t look too strong at all actually.
But ok, i’m used to everything new being called OP everytime and asked for nerfs for things that aren#t even too strong in comparison to the standard meta play. It’s just a bit weird this comes so long after the release of the new civs and still stats showing them not very hot.
Yes we see them played and successfull in NAC, but these kind of maps aren’t even played in ranked where the mule carts are such a big advantage,
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-100 w because Lumber Camps cost 100 wood, so it just compensates for that. Of course, you can use it to hunt, scout etc too.
To address other issues, I am giving them a chance to use their economy bonus in the Feudal Age, which will have dramatic effects. Even one FC boosting 12 farms would be enough to give them an edge in the Feudal Age. This will allow them to use other options, like Cav Archers or Knights. Now since they have an eco bonus and can stabilise, their OP Monaspa could be toned down. Not exactly a stat reduction, and neither is their power reduced at max capacity.
Georgians currently have a 35% WR for NACV, so there’s really no cause for nerfing anything atm.
Which can be addressed just by removing the resource penalty.
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I think I can say with a fair degree of confidence that Armenians are never going to lose Fortified Churches, and Georgians are never going to lose the -50F. Churches are a DLC-wide building, and the food loss is too massive of a different in how they start.
Why not try to find other ways to fix civs than changing them fundamentally? It’s harder, but imo more fun.
How? In that case, they basically start with a free Lumber Camp - that’s it for entire two Ages.
Not really a tweak to Georgians. Any changes to the fortified church could be done as a bonus specific to the Georgians (similar to the Armenian Mule Cart Bonus)
Definitely a number that could be tweaked. 10 would likely be too much, but it is a good way to nerf Monaspas if the devs decide to do so. Another option would be reducing their production speed (which would make them harder to mass).
They have cheaper repairs TB and the defensive hill bonus (though at that stage of the game, it’s more likely to be relevant for units than buildings)
This would raise a lot of implementation issues. You’d have to determine where to place the Fortified Church, and maps are varied enough that the only real option would be in the same space as the Town Center (which would cause issues). At that point, you’d be better off having the bonus apply to TCs as well
Regenerating cavalry is a strong bonus with proper micro. Cavalry are fast enough to pick their engagements, and melee engagements tend to result in damage spread out among multiple units. Makes cavalry one of the best users of natural HP regen (which is probably why it is so low)
What if Monaspas only benefitted from knights, not other monaspas?