So, Germany’s age 4 shipments are very strong thanks to the +4 Uhlans (or extra mercs) they get with each shipment, but they have a massively increased xp requirement to get those shipments. When you revolt, you lose that bonus but keep the increased xp cost and none of Germany’s revolution options have compensation for that (one could argue that Hungary’s +1 Blockhouse per shipment is similar, but those are available to Ottomans and Russians and are therefore still significantly less powerful in German hands).
I think the Germans should get +4 Uhlans during Revolutions just to compensate for losing that bonus. Perhaps instead they could even get an equivalent cav unit to be themed for the revolution (so for Colombia they could get 4 Llaneros, for Argentina they could get 4 Gauchos, and for Hungary they could get a couple of Crabats or Magyar Hussars). What do y’all think?
The Spanish already get Argentina shipments -27% xp cost. Germans get Argentina shipments +10% xp cost. How often do you see Spanish (or even Italians) revolting to Argentina? Is it meta or op?
Also, the only stand-out Argentine shipmetns are San Martin and Granaderos, everything else is numerically on-par or worse than all the other revolutions’ shipments.
its spain revolt of choice vs anything that can stop chile
as for germany, +4 uhlans on top of say genadodos is giving you a super strong shipment (all revolt shipments are by nature a bit overvalued since you nuked your eco to get access) so adding a very strong unit in the uhlan which are often the counter to said shipment counters (uhlans counter skirms) makes it even harder to stop said revolt, which is already very strong.
In a perfect world, we would just remove the 10% xp tax on a revolt. i think that is the fair middle ground that doesnt break the revolt balance but gives germany a incentive
Incorrect, I did the math (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mFfOWFFkPxTq3PYfNS6KnSln4s5007s9DOCqwjrbGWM/edit#gid=220373355) and most revolutionary cards are already on the low end of age 4 shipment values compared to standard Euro age 4 shipments. This is made even more apparent with Germany’s age 4 shipment values being by far more valuable than revolutionary age 4 shipments, and you can check all the math in the spreadsheet for all that.
Uhlans also ship with War Wagons, countering the counter to a staple unit shipment. Also, this is part of the reason why I suggested “thematic” units instead of Uhlans, like shipping 4 Gauchos (which are actually balanced around 1-pop making it weaker than Uhlans already) just to break out of the weirdness of “Argentina” shipping a very Prussian unit. I’m still unconvinced people would use Argentina as Germany much just to take advantage of the big shipments.
Did you calculate the shadowteching and account for the fact you dont need houses as well as the fact rev units are undervalued because your eco is shit?
Yeah, any number that says “X value (X w/stats)” is calculated at whatever tech it’s mapped to (vet, guard, royal guard, whatever).
Did you account for the fact you dont need houses as well as the fact rev units are undervalued because your eco is shit?
No, what do you mean rev units are undervalued? 22 Royal Guard-statted musks have the same equivalent res value in the hands of Argentina as they do in the hands of Portugal.
all your stats is above the std 1600 age4 balance point…so that would be overvalued. to be clear i meant the value of revolts is already high because you spend 3k resources and then nuke your eco (usually) to access them so ofc they are very well costed.
when you ship uhlan they are not given guard or vet status. no german shipment upgrades units besides winged huss and the circle army iirc. and landwehr. genadaros are costed for age4, same with revolutionaires, then other stuff like imperial mortars which is something like 3.5k res plus the mortar, and you see they are hardly undervalued. all without needing pop space so cant stop them which is btw how you are supposed to counter gemrany is nip their pop space no pop space no shipments.
22 royal guard musk i assume you meant the criollos? those are consulate musk. also shadowteching and 10% stats. i dont think royal musk can get into argentina revolt cept native tp.
3WW+3 uhlan (the age4 eq card is rarely used) is part of the civ bonus which the entire civ is designed around (no musk no 2 falcs) so WW/skirm/uhlan is the comp. argentina isnt not part of the civ bonus, your giving up civ bonus to get a huge powerspike is the point of a revolt. which is why you should not get guachos (4 goons seriously given how fast you can spam xp initally from a revolt this would be incredible op?) or w/e as germany. just remove the xp penalty and you fix this issue and make it viable without making an already strong revolt probably just op.
Also remmember the grenados, mounted grenadiers which are already super hard to kill, will be impossbile if you can mass goon or skirm while shipping. its just not a good idea i think. thats why the simple fix is probably better imho
The fun thing about revolutions is using the units that represent the revolution, so I really don’t think giving a +4 uhlans is a good idea.
I propose the following.
Argentina: Change this revolution for Chile and make each shipment give you 2 death hussars.
Gran Colombia: Each shipment of the Gran Colombia revolution sent 2 Llanero or 2 Harquebusier.
Hungary: Each Hungarian Revolution sent 2 Magyar Hussars.
Another change that I would make is to give the Germans a card that allows them to eliminate Uhlans by shipment and in exchange they receive experience boxes, perhaps 100 or 150, this could translate into revolutions having double, about 200 or 300 in experience boxes.
What? None of the shipments are tallied based on res value, it’s all villager-second-equivalency. Again, compare to German unit shipments which all blow the Argentinian ones out of the water even considering the lack of free age 4 stat equivalency (which adds 50% stats to units). For reference, German’s 24 xbow + 4 Uhlans = 2520 res with 3967 VS value without any unit upgrades (and if you’re German in age 4 you’re probably at least teching up Uhlans). 7 Guard Winged Hussars = 2100 res with 4534 VS value (and don’t take housing), Germans also have a 3 Mortar card which is better than Argentinian 1 Imperial Mortar AND ships 4 Uhlans for 1950 total res value (3670 VS value), 4 War Wagons + 4 Uhlans = 2620 res value (3602 VS value without any unit upgrades researched), the list goes on. Meanwhile Argentina only has 1 card with that kind of value out-of-the-box (San Martin) and everything else is conditional or just flat out worse than everything Germany has to offer.
which is why you should not get guachos (4 goons seriously given how fast you can spam xp initally from a revolt this would be incredible op?)
Gauchos are mapped to 1-pop stats. You wouldn’t be shipping 4 goons, you’d be shipping 2 goons.
genadaros are costed for age4
Even if they are, 10 granaderos (using 150f as their base and multiplied by 1.5x due to age-4 stats) is valued at 2679 VS value which is worse than a lot of Euro age 4 shipments (again, not to mention the downgrade from Germany’s usual).
costed for age4, same with revolutionaires
Revolutionaries suck and are not age 4 stat equivalent. Compare to Fusiliers or Caroleans or even just Musketeers and their speed/hp boost is not quite sufficient to make them truly worth the value (hence why I haven’t applied a mod to their net value making them lower in the shipment category). For comparison’s sake, check out Central America’s age-2-statted Revolutionaries. They deal less damage to cav at range than musks do, and musks don’t even get a ranged multiplier!
But if Argentina is so dominant then fine, just ignore it for this one suggestion and give German Colombia 4 Llaneros with each shipment and German Hungary 2 Magyar Hussars or something. You think that’d be a balance concern?
As I understand it, the Germans stop having an XP penalty when they reach the 17th shipment, and the Spanish stop having an XP bonus when they reach the 19th shipment.
This is true, and usually only applies in Treaty mode or big team games. Nonetheless, even after German xp penalty is ended they still have more powerful cards than other civs (including infinite cards) which indicates that their civ bonus of “better but more xp-costing cards” should carry through to revolutions.
Fwiw the devs (og ones at least) balanced the game around 300 700 1k 1.6k res crates not vill seconds. Vill seconds becomes a bit weirder when you consider stuff like how 1k wood crate can fuel a 3 to 4k res shipment. Or when revolting factories make wood as fast as food which makes wood costed industrial shipments cheaper than you’d think But i think its a pretty cool mathematical forumula.you got that probably is better than before. I know a guy GideonAI you should meet up with sometime hes done something similar with costs. Just fyi.
Still back to res, 16 revolutionary on top of the existing revolt mass plus 4 guachos over and over is a very nasty free shipment.
As for pther revolts? Maybe gran columbia is safer its not a very popular revolt. I still think just removing the 10% is easier but at least here it’s just musk huss comboing if +x# of cav per shipment. Instead of goon mounted gren. Its not like germany can revolt easily (yet…m)