Greece civ When will it arrive

[Dumuzi]

You keep taking what I’m saying in a vacuum. You have to look at countries from multiple perspectives to judge if they can be considered major or minor. While I think cultural success and spheres of influence are the largest determiners, you cannot overlook their other achievements such as how “it controlled about a third of the continent, and won a war against France.” That’s why I made this point. Those things alone do not make Mexico a major power, but it helps its case certainly.

@M00Z1LLA

USA was a minor regional power when it got independence. As was Ethiopia

This is sort of becoming a hydra-argument, but I’ll entertain this. You could probably consider the fledgling US a minor power, but after The War of 1812, it had cemented itself as the dominant power of the North American East Coast (oh look, another country proving itself be winning a defensive war). Edit: I was wrong about this. It would probably take a few more decades for the US to be major
And if not the Solomonic Dynasty of Ethiopia, who else is the major power of (a place almost as large as Europe) the Horn of Africa? Before, during, and after colonization they thoroughly proved themselves as the major influence of the region.

@M00Z1LLA

If you want to call a country a major power, it should at least not be in a state of perpetual civil war and invasion.

So does territory matter or not? lol. In fact I think these help it’s case, because a country beset by so many warring sides obviously has a fair amount of influence worth cutting into. You don’t see a million invasions in Canada, partly because it has less influence over the map than Mexico did. I’m trying to make less analogies because they bog the conversation down, but the same thing happened with China during the 1800s. The Qing was struggling against constant invasions and rebellions, but it remained the dominant power of China despite that. So too Mexico.

@M00Z1LLA

there was a united culture over Italy during the Italian Wars

No there wasn’t. Northern Italians and Southern Italians are both infamous for considering themselves wildly different from each other, to say nothing of inter-regional feuds. There is far less separatism in Mexico-proper even though it actually does cover a lot of different little cultures and ethnic groups. Again, this speaks to how strong it’s influence was/is.

[M00Z1LLA]

@Dumuzi

but after The War of 1812, it had cemented itself as the dominant power of the North American East Coast (oh look, another country proving itself be winning a defensive war)

1. This was an offensive war for the USA
2. It was a stalemate even though Britain was busy with Napoleon
3. USA was most definitely still a minor power at this point

@Dumuzi

And if not the Solomonic Dynasty of Ethiopia, who else is the major power of (a place almost as large as Europe) the Horn of Africa?

No one. A region having no major powers is totally possible.

@Dumuzi

but the same thing happened with China during the 1800s. The Qing was struggling against constant invasions and rebellions, but it remained the dominant power of China despite that.

Qing was a major world power before that. And it declined so much it is called the century of humiliation. Mexico didn’t start off so strong.

You have such a low bar to qualify something as a “major” power we’re not ever going to agree on this.

[Dumuzi]

@M00Z1LLA

You have such a low bar to qualify something as a “major” power

You yourself considered pre-colonial Portugal and the Netherlands to be major powers because of their influence. I don’t see how my examples are lesser.

[MatM1996]

@Silenos7315

Greece should be added as a revolt from Ottomans and Italians

Ottomans at least yes, Italians it may be if you consider Venice…

@AnyDiagram93675

Yes,I guess Devs has to ottoman’s revolution to Greece ,But The Devs have said that Greece will never be made a complete civ

Oh why?..I didn’t know they had said that, well goodbye Balkan DLC then…

@Jonasnee8581

i dont think they have said that, but it is fairly unlikely.

Ah, it seemed to me, because I didn’t remember them ever saying anything about new civs…

@CanineCrown7153

However, I think Greece will never be a civ on its own because it wasn’t even a local power after its independence. Note that this doesn’t mean I don’t want them

Yes, that is, you can add the Greeks simply for the historical continuity of the saga…

@Dumuzi

Sorry I know this is a somewhat old post, but Mexico was by no means a “minor regional power” it controlled about a third of the continent, won a war against France, and its revolutions basically cover every significant North American postcolonial power outside of the US and Canada.

@M00Z1LLA

It lost a good portion of that territory as soon as it was contested. Haiti also won a war against France and I wouldn’t say it’s a major power. Even the USA was a only a regional power during the AoE3 timeframe and Mexico was not more powerful than USA.

@Dumuzi

That’s all true, but Mexico had a much broader cultural legacy than say, Haiti. Again, the revolution mechanic kind of nods at that. That Mexico itself was fairly unstable, but its instability defined the 19th century for Central America and future western territories of the US

@M00Z1LLA

That’s only its local region. Hence calling Mexico a “minor regional power” is correct.

@Dumuzi

I’m still getting the impression that hairs are being split here . Do you mean that they didn’t have overseas colonies? If that’s the case then Russia was also a “minor regional power” since their empire was contiguous except for Alaska. Plus the German states would have been even more unstable and would have covered even less land than Mexico did. I’m not trying to be argumentative, I just think from a historical perspective that their sphere of influence was pretty massive, even if they failed to hold onto it. I would at least call them a major power at this time just not a major world power.

@M00Z1LLA

Mexico didn’t have control over Mexico. They controlled most of this territory on paper only. If it wasn’t a complete basket case then it would be a major power, but that’s just not how it went down.

@M00Z1LLA

Prussia was almost constantly expanding and growing in strength against all odds. It didn’t dissolve, it was so successful it founded the Second Reich. Your argument that territory equals major power is just not true. Tiny countries like Portugal and the Netherlands were massively influential even before they had big colonial holdings, and huge countries like Canada were very weak.

@Dumuzi

You yourself considered pre-colonial Portugal and the Netherlands to be major powers because of their influence. I don’t s

Now, calm down, you are both right…

@Dumuzi

• A civ must have gone to war with at least one of the other existing civs: Hausa breaks this (never fought any of the other civs until the 20th century, well past the game’s typical end point)

European attention had been focusing on the region for colonial expansion for much of the last part of the 19th century. The French in particular had sent multiple exploratory missions to the area to assess colonial opportunities after 1870.

@Dumuzi

• Malta as a map is strangely still absent)

They’ll put it in at some point…

@Dumuzi

Greece for example was a lot more vulnerable, and if not for wide European support it would have struggled much more for independence, but Mexico withstood horrendous losses with little to no support and still exists even now. That defines a major power for its era. Think of Late Era Rome, no one would call that “minor” despite its similar and even worse losses.

That’s true, between 1840 and 1867, Mexico was a political mess between liberals and conservatives, revolutions, American and French interventions and the second empire…

@Dumuzi

Modern Italian Culture is far less influential than Roman. But I would argue that even Modern Italian culture is more extant than Modern Greece’s.

Mainly due to Italian immigration to America…

@RhythmicBoar556

Ancient Greek peoples would not view modern Greeks as Greek.

Yes, they would think that modern Greeks are Persians or Scythians xd…

@Dumuzi

This is sort of becoming a hydra-argument, but I’ll entertain this. You could probably consider the fledgling US a minor power, but after The War of 1812, it had cemented itself as the dominant power of the North American East Coast (oh look, another country proving itself be winning a defensive war). Edit: I was wrong about this. It would probably take a few more decades for the US to be major

Well, the United States doubled its size with Louisiana purchase and from there began the Monroe doctrine that maintains it to this day…

[Prokman7582]

This is the most nonsense comment I have encountered over these forums ever (also out of topic, at least). Gongrats to you for your talent to produce nonsense comments (like you have interviewed the dead, or you can speak on their behalf), and to those who liked already such a comment, @Dumuzi and @SirBarnzy1.

Also, seems that your brains can’t even do the reverse thought, and ask whether you wouldn’t view the future inhabitants of your countries’ area (who would have retained at least one cultural element, the language for example) as evolved result of your culture.

[Dumuzi]

I don’t think it was that serious. I just think an ancient Greek would find themself in a pretty unfamiliar environment in modern Greece. They don’t worship Zeus, the language is slightly different, they wear completely different clothing. Nobody said Modern Greek weren’t Greek, just that cultures change over time.

[Prokman7582]

What you point out is reasonably agreed, many things change over time. I wanted to point out that it’s silly to do/support statements like @RhythmicBoar556’s, because with that logic, not even classical Greeks would be considered Greeks to the Bronze age Greeks… and that’s not a logical thought to culture study. It doesn’t make any sense to us the moderns, and obviously.

[SirBarnzy1]

@Prokman7582

This is the most idiotic comment I have enountered over these forums ever. Gongrats to you for your talent to produce nonsense comments (like you have interviewed the dead, or you can speak on their behalf), and to those who liked already such a comment, @Dumuzi and @SirBarnzy1.

Also, seems that your brains can’t even do the reverse thought, and ask whether you wouldn’t view the future inhabitants of your countries’ area (who would have retained at least one cultural element, the language for example) as evolved result of your culture.

Wow, that’s an unwarranted response.

I can ‘like’ what I want and factually ancient Greeks would probably find modern Greeks quite different (even taking a single Greek state like Sparta - culturally they’d find modern Greeks different!) just as ancient British Celtic tribes finding modern Brits rather different. Sure they there may be some shared cultural links however there’s clearly differences that would be apparent.

Anyway despite my ‘like’, the original comment was a little veering away from the topic. Let’s move on.

[Prokman7582]

Since you know factually much about how particular Greek city-state citizens would find modern Greeks, as well as Celts the modern Brits, etc… tell us 1) how they would find Medieval Greeks, and 2) how Bronze age Mycenaean Greeks would find the classical Greeks of the city-states… nobody deserves to “be viewed” as Greek all of a sudden… and then think if liking controversial, unscientific, and silly (in the end), out of topic comments, is beneficial to anything besides to the actual topic.

[RhythmicBoar556]

My…someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

[IVIACHINE]

Not to stray too far from this topic, I’m surprised there isn’t an Albanian revolution option in the game. Albanians fought off the Ottoman Empire for 50 years.

I feel like that’s worth a mention.

[DonHabsburg]

That could just be the Egyptian civ, which was governed at the time by Albanians.

[M00Z1LLA]

That would be a great way to include them.

Not every nation needs to be represented in a revolution or standalone civ. Nations like Switzerland have units like Swiss Pikemen and Papal Guards to represent them. Similarly, Albanians are represented by Stradiots.