Gunpowder Projectile Speed

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
#1

I’m curious what people think of the speed at which gunpowder projectiles travel. The proposed change is: all gunpowder units have their projectile speed normalized to 7 tiles/second. This is the speed that archers, arrow towers, and Spanish cannon galleon projectiles move.

For reference the current projectile speed (according to the wiki), approximate flight time at max range and implied new flight time for each gunpowder unit is:

Unit Projectile Speed Flight time change (max range)
Bombard Tower 3 3.66s → 1.57s
Bombard Cannon 4 3.25s^ → 1.85s^
Elite Cannon Galleon 1.95 7.70s^ → 2.14s^
Turtle Ship 7.8 0.77s → 0.85s
Hand Cannoneer/Organ Gun 5.5 1.27s → 1s
Conquistador 5.5 1.09s → 0.85s
Janissary 5.5 1.45s → 1.14s

^ These units fire in a very large arc so these estimates may be off more, idk if the projectile speed is ground speed or air speed.

Also for reference, arquebus (Portuguese UT) grants ballistics behavior and increases projectile speed slightly and this would still take effect after the change. E.g. Portuguese organ guns and hand cannoneers would have 7.5 projectile speed.

Anyway here’s the poll:

Which of the following units would likely improve, or leave unaffected, game balance if their projectile speed was set to 7 tiles/second
    • Bombard Tower
    • Bombard Cannon
    • Cannon Galleon
    • Turtle Ship
    • Hand Cannoneer
    • Organ Gun
    • Conquistador
    • Janissary

0 voters

Feel free to discuss alternative projectile speeds or what else to give the Spanish if every other galleon has projectile speed normalized.

1 Like
#2

No “none” option?

I know gunpowder units in general are a little underwhelming, but this feels like one of those things that could be a dangerous overbuff. Maybe don’t start by increasing the projectile speed for all of them by a huge amount.

4 Likes
#3

Making huge sweeping changes like this would have all sorts of unintended effects, both in Single Player mode and Multi Player mode.

For example, if you play against the AI, you can actually micro your Cannon Galleons against the AI cannon galleons, to dodge shots. With your proposed changes, this is impossible, and your navy gets destroyed 10/10 times as soon as the AI is able to produce Cannon Galleons.

1 Like
#4

11
You really should watch some pro replays. Doding projectils as fast arrows is entirely normal.

1 Like
#5

I know, to even get past a certain point in the ladder, it’s a required skill. But you have to keep in mind the lower rated/casual players of a game. Especially people who only play campaigns, they won’t have god-tier micro.

1 Like
#6

I feel like the speed boost for cannonballs would be excessive. Imo leave turtle ships as is and boost the speed of cannon galleons and BBTs projectiles to match the one of BBCs. This allows to outmicro the cannonballs if paying attention, but at the same removes the ridiculous slow motion effect that we have now. Could make cannon galleons marginally more useful in water battles.

As for the other hand cannon type units, I agree that they need a large boost in projectile speed. I would increase it to be slightly faster than arrows, so that they have something compensanting for the lack of ballistics. It certainly wouldn’t make those units op, as there are many other factors holding them back at the moment (poor accuracy, cost, lateness of availability etc.).

3 Likes
#7

Intuitively I think gun powder projectiles should be faster than arrows and stones, specially handcannoner type units. So, you don’t need balistics because of the speed projectile, but you have bad accuracy and low RoF. At least, as I know, that way first medieval gunpowder weapons worked and I would like to see in AOE

6 Likes
#8

That’s the point of the poll, to see the distribution in what people think can be changed to the Spanish Cannon Galleon/Arrow/Tower speed and which would pose problems.

Also this poll doesn’t need a ‘None’ because there’s 1 option in there which is basically guaranteed to not change the balance. If enough people disregard that ‘Trap’ option it indicates that the poll shouldn’t be trusted.

#9

Unless people disagree with your assessment of that situation. Maybe people don’t want Turtle Ships to fire slower, for instance. Maybe people just don’t want these units to lose personality by becoming standardized.

#10

Whether they do or don’t want it changed is more or less independent of the fact that such a change to turtle ships is very likely to leave game balance unaffected.

The point of “traps” like this is to ensure people are answering the question as asked and not via some unknown criteria of their own choosing.

1 Like
#11

I’d agree with everything EXCEPT cannon galleons. CGs firing fast across the board would stand to majorly impacted water balance to a degree I’m wary of.

Faster bombard cannon shots might be a little OP to.

Aside from that though, I agree. Bombard towers in particular feels a little useless right now. While a bump to speed 7 may be too much for them, they at least need a little love. Maybe let them smash rams again, so that they have a purpose.

Hand cannoneers really could use the buff, especially since it’s a round about and fairly balanced buff for them, and heaven knows that piano cannons need some love.

2 Likes
#12

I think the speed is to take affect for balancing. If you had a cannon gallon fire as fast as others it would be the domant choice on water. Regular gallon may fire at a faster rate but you will deal more damage and far more likely to hit. I may not have explained this well enough ask me questions if you dont understand.

#13

Galleons deal like 15-17 damage per shot against a cannon galleon at 1/3rd the cost and 3x the fire rate. There’s no way they could become the dominant choice on water because galleons (and probably fire ships as well) would clean them up.

There exist other arguments for not increasing the cannon galleon projectile speed (e.g. how it interacts with heated shot) but I don’t see how what you said is remotely plausible.

1 Like
#14

When i land a hit with them i see nearly a 1/3 to 1/2 of the ships hp gone. I don’t know damage for ships very well in this game but to me it would seem very hard to dodge and with a nice line up of the cannons you can easy take down the other ships

#15

I heavily disagree. The game should not be balanced towards campaign players at all, as there are thousends of ways to alter the difficulty of campaings. The game should be enjoyable for all players, but you should never sacrifice top level balance to achieve this.

#16

I can see where you are coming from, but Campaigns are also important, it’s usually the first point of contact for newcomers to the game. Either way, all Cannon Galleons being as good as the Spanish ones now would be still ridiculous, as that example was just set to be more relatable for others to understand.

#17

Agree, i never said i would support the changes proposed by OP. I just think that your argument is deeply flawed. Campaigns would be barely impacted by higher projectile speed, pro play would be.

#18

For sure, I agree. Just wasn’t sure if I knew how to explain that to everyone. :slight_smile:

#19

I like this suggestion in particular.

Buff Cannon Galleons and Bombard Towers to match the speed of Bombard Cannons but leave Hand Canoneers/Conquistadors/Janissaries as is.

#20

Why Bombard cannon doesn’t have at least the same range than a BBC with all upgrades?