But it’s literally dressed as that specific monster to evoke fear, I think it’s quite appropriate to name it as such.
It’s also far from the first unit named or themed after mythological creatures. There are already Basilisk cannons that cause poison damage, Buckriders, the Beast of Gévaudan, and numerous treasures that mention mythical stuff like Jackalopes and Sasquatch.
My initial roster was a very lean design, and I’d like to make some amendments to flesh it out a little more and incorporate some elements people have suggested in the comments. Thanks @SirBarnzy1, @Kingfisher1787, and @HoopThrower for the suggestions.
The reworked roster would be as follows:
Aquientor Archer (II)
Raven Raider (II)
Harpooner (II)
Seawolf Marine (II)
Forest Prowler (III)
Gaagiid Berserker (III)
Ram (III)
Swivel Gun (III)
Carronade (IV)
Fishing Boat (I)
Dugout Canoe (II)
Fire Canoe (II)
War Canoe (III)
Head Canoe (III)
Sailing Canoe (IV)
Instead of a heavy infantry ranged counter to cavalry, Harpooners would be more accurately depicted as ranged shock infantry. Harpoons are essentially a barbed javelin, so a unit with a primarily ranged attack mode would be a good fit. Their effectiveness against large marine mammals like whales and sea lions would obviously translate to horses, so a bonus versus cavalry would make sense. Harpooners could be lightly clad to remain agile with a woven cedar hat and shawl like a typical hunter. The rope attached to the harpoon could possibly be represented by giving them the ability to snare at range.
Guns reached the PNW frontier rather late, but as soon as they did, they rapidly transformed warfare. As better firearms came to the region, traditional armours fell out of use, but at least initially their armours provided protection against musket fire. These elements could be combined into the role of a tanky musket infantry unit with dual ranged and melee resistances.
In the PNW, the most common way tribes waged war was by lightning raids to maraud and take captives followed by withdrawal back to their canoes. Due to this amphibious style of warfare, I think the term “marine” is fitting for these warriors. The wooden helms of these warriors would be adorned with carvings of spirits and animals, and this could also add to the name. One fitting crest is the seawolf which is a mythological wolf-orca hybrid which blends the strengths of land and sea just like amphibious marines. In addition to this, there is a recurring motif in the mythology of animals bestowing their power when wearing their skins which is especially prominent in the seawolf myths. I’m open to other name suggestions though, maybe “Seawolf Marauders” as something less formal than Marines.
Instead of Light Cannons, the Haida/Tlingit should have Swivel Guns. Significant numbers of Swivel Guns were traded to the PNW natives for their highly prized otter skins. These could serve as light generalist artillery available in age 3. To compensate for their relatively low range for an anti-artillery unit, they should possess the target lock ability. These would also be appropriate units for a Hawaiian civ.
Carronades should still be available, but need some alterations to their stats to fit in better with Swivel Guns and better reflect their historical use. Carronades functioned as short range anti-personnel weapons so they definitely should not outrange Falconets. Instead, they could have lower base damage, but a higher AoE and infantry multiplier. These guns would have been the primary armament of merchant vessels and would not have been traded to the natives. Therefore, they would have been obtained through the salvage of captured ships. To reflect this, Carronades could have a makeshift chassis of lashed together logs and be carried around like a Mortar.
To make Raven Raiders even more unique, they could be given a bit of siege resistance to reflect the alleged fearlessness of cannons among PNW natives. This would also be especially helpful for shock infantry since they tend to bunch up more and they lack the high health needed to tank artillery fire.
During the battle of Sitka the Tlingit inadvertently created an explosive canoe when a canoe transporting their gunpowder stores was intercepted by Russians and detonated. In this case it didn’t turn out well, but this event could inspire a more intentional use. The process of constructing dugout canoes also involves fire to cut down on the amount of carving by burning away material in the center of the log. Therefore, Fire Canoes could look like halfway carved canoes loaded with gunpowder and set ablaze. Realistically, these could be available to all the native civs.
Instead of just a standard Medicine Man (Healer), the Haida/Tlingit could have a Shaman with a more substantial role. Shamans accompanied war parties in canoes and went into battle to inspire warriors and intimidate enemies. They could be armed with a rattle to stun enemies similarly to Griots. Other intimidation methods like transformation masks could be incorporated into the look.
Looks amazing! I like the changes!
Swivel Guns would need some extra range for late game (could do it multiple ways. A card for +2 SG range and +1 Cannonade Range or simply +1 range with age 4 and 5 would both work).
Harpooners look great! They’d probably need something for a little extra range to line up with similar units (probably just +2), but I like the very targeted ~only anti cav role.
Seems like it’d make a great civ!
Edit: Also thanks for the @ and the incredibly detailed write up!
What native allies, renegades, outlaws or mercenaries could they have on their cards?
Could there be new natives as a result?
I agree, Harpooners would need a card to boost their range. But I’d be a bit more hesitant to give a bunch of extra range to Swivel Guns and Carronades since it’s kinda stretching the reality of how the were used. Swivel Guns should have target lock by default which would somewhat compensate for their range, and for Carronades I’d just give them enough health upgrades to tank a few shots.
I added a card that could take care of both Harpooner and Swivel Gun range in a bit of a unique way:
Swivels are awesome.
I’d still push Falconets (don’t worry, not captured), and possibly Heavy Cannon or Lil Bombard (shipments), just without the horse limbering mode.
From The Tlingit Indians in Russian America, 1741-1867, Andrei Val’terovich
American traders even sold the Indians light cannons. In 1799 Baranov personally saw four one-pound-caliber falconets among the Sitka people (Tikhmenev 1863:2:Append. 146)
In 1819 S. I. Yankovskii, the governor of Russian America, reported to St. Petersburg that there were more rifles among the Tlingit than among the Russians, and the Kaagwaantaan clan had more than ten large cannons in their fort (rgia, f. 994, op. 2, d. 833, l. 1).
New to Tlingit methods of collective defense was the equipping of some forts with cannons. In 1804 the Sitka people used cannons to defend their fortified settlement during its siege by Baranov’s detachments (Lisianskii 1812:30). The use of artillery by Natives who were the socioeconomic equals of the Tlingit was rare in the colonies
It does sound cool, and I totally didn’t mean any disrepect when I said they were fantasy - I justr meant that harpoons were only for hunting. Most sources regarding harpoons only mention that they would be used for seals and porpoises and it would be considered wasteful for such specialised tool designed to help feed a village would be considered for warfare. The harpoons the Tlingit used also had rope attached to bring in the prey, which again sounds great, but practically would be a hindrance in battle.
I would counter with the Shee Aan - the dart/spear thower. The Tlingit used fine carved spear/dart throwers ( atlatl) for both hunting and warfare, using specialised darts/spears either for marine animals (which would be barbed), land mammals and of course humans.
From The Tlingit Indians in Russian America, 1741-1867, Andrei Val’terovich
Some daggers were double-bladed, their handles terminating in another, shorter blade (Goddard 1924:107–108, 158; Ratner-Shternberg 1930:183–186). The dart and bow and arrows were suitable for combating the enemy from a distance.
In-game, it shares an easier to associate role with the Aztec Eagle Runner - a lighter, smaller dart/spear being launched from a more mobile unit and could possibly function as a hunter too.
Shamans also were known to using spear-throwers and accompany war parties, so that could also provide a twist for ranged, shock infantry (that could heal).
For natives I gave them Nootka allies as well as Nez Perce (which is a bit of a stretch but it gives them cavalry). Eyak would be a good support one, but I’d make it just some of their standard units. Since only one out of Haida, Tlingit, and Tsimshian would be the main face of the civ, the others could appear as support shipments. Haida allies could send canoes since that’s what they excelled at. Tlingit allies could send Berserkers since most preserved armours are from there.
For outlaws, the Klondike gold rush went through the region, so miners and wild west outlaws make sense. Cossack Daredevils would also make sense. I made the gambling sticks card that could provide any random mercenary.
For new natives, Aleuts could maybe work. They were more allies of the Russians against the Tlingit though.l and would need a few more maps to justify. They were very unique looking with their bentwood hats.
Just because they existed doesn’t mean they have to be included. I think a one time shipment of Light Cannons (or Stronghold tech like Inca) would be sufficient to represent these bigger cannons rather than trying to make some weird falc with a native crew and no limber mode (which is essentially what Light Cannons already are). I’m curious how they ended up with these heavier cannons since it’s unlikely they would have been traded to them. Maybe they were pilfered from Redoubt St. Michael when they sacked it.
I think we both have the same thing in mind, but with a different interpretation of the name. I agree they should use a spear thrower and hurl lighter harpoons without a rope. The name Harpooner clearly showcases their strong maritime connection while also clearly being a weapon. Just because it’s a hunting weapon doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be used in war. Most of the accounts of Haida raids were pretty much ambushing isolated parties out hunting or gathering berries, and in those cases the defenders might only have harpoons. It’s also analogous to the bolas which was a hunting weapon that got repurposed to fight Spanish cavalry. Had the Tlingit faced cavalry, harpoons could have certainly come in handy.
Aleut when under russian domination, but their usual trade partners were the ahtan who traded copper they mined, and alutiq/suupiaq who traded pelts and materials for items from interior canada/british Columbia and Yukon regions. Fwiw
Loving the work so far!
Edit one fun thing to add would be navajo. Did you lnow they are ethnically related? They had legends of a great migration from south to north and similiar legends that were told jist coincidenc. They noted similarities of language that was dismissed for decades until genetics showed they are are more similar to eachother than not, and the language is part of the na dene family and their legends were right. A navajo shipment would be a nice nod to this that despite 1000s of miles apart 2 peoples cultural memory standing the test of times
Why not just… Nootka allies?
Yes that may be right. This would require testing.
I totally agree. In addition to the rope issue, the Harpoon is designed to lock into the victim’s body, which is another obstacle and makes the idea of using it for land combat even more pointless.
Instead of inventing such a fantasy unit, it is better to use harpoons for their intended purpose, e.g. as a unique card that would increase the rate of gathering coins from whales by +50% etc.
No, it is not analogous, because the bolas has no design obstacles to using it in land combat and there are records of its use in this way by the Inca and Mapuche. Harpoons are not suitable for the purpose you are trying to assign them, and in the role of weapon for an anti-cavalry unit, an ordinary spear (commonly used in that area) would be completely sufficient.
And as for the cavalry, how do you plan to differ a potential Tlingit/Haida nation from the other “horseless” nations in the game? Even Incas (with much more diverse and documented warfare) caused a lot of problems for devs and ultimately most of Aztec and Inca units are only counterparts of each other in terms of gameplay purposes. When designing your unit roster, you need to consider how not to create a third iteration of the same.
I suggest to create a table with all types of units (skirmishers, heavy melee infantry, heavy distance infantry, shock infantry, etc.) in the columns and fill the rows with units of individual factions (already playable Native American nations would be enough to start with). This would give us an idea of where there are still blank spaces and how to design a potential faction’s roster to fill the gaps and not create another edition of the same template.
You know barbed javelins have been a weapon of war for thousands of years? Getting stuck in an enemy is exactly what weapons like pilum, angon, panilipo (the other name is censored) are supposed to do.
Lol, Inca are a masterclass in bad civ design so it’s not hard to avoid those issues. They ignored half of their historical units to make them a botched Aztec clone. Aztecs aren’t too bad other than their lack of artillery which is obviously not an issue for a Haida/Tlingit civ with artillery coming out the wazoo. I think the devs make balancing look harder than it is when they do stuff like making Arrow Knights heavy infantry.
I would use European civs as the default to design from. The existing native civs are so wonky that they are a bad starting point. I’m not sure why you’d think I wouldn’t have already considered this though.
I’m not sure what gaps you think there is here. The only thing missing is a pikeman equivalent and that’s more than covered by having a musketeer and dragoon equivalent in age 2 and mega halberdiers in age 3.
There could still a role for an ‘archaic’ pikemen Heavy Infantry unit, especially as the spear was a common weapon. 4 metre Iron/Copper head spears were the speciality so maybe a Tsaagál Warrior (Spear warrior)?
These could aesthetically be the K’isáani (young men) warriors out to prove themselves, so not the fancy helmets of the strongest warriors (conical hats or long hair instead).
History aside, a cheap heavy infantry is generally needed if we’re going with the format that musketeer equivs/slot units have a bigger resource cost than archaics.
Changing the subject a little, how about a shipment or innate ability of a specific boat called Coastal Raiders, which bestows all military boats an aura (‘Amphibious Raid’) that boosts nearby land units’ speed and defense.
That can be said of literally every civ ever so I don’t think it’s a compelling reason. It’s not like AoE2 where’s there’s a generic spearman every civ can share. In AoE3 you’ve got to force a unique unit and it usually ends up being something dumb like “Spear (untranslated) Spearman”.
In this case adding an archaic spearman is going to cause there to be too many redundant units in the roster. Generally civs only have 2 out of 3 of units equivalent to Pikes/Halbs/Musks. When they do have all 3 at least one of the units has a more specialized role like JPK or Bolas Warriors. There are also lots of civs like Hauds, Hausa, USA, Lakota, and formerly Ottos with only 1.
That’s far from a rule, USA and Japan have expensive musks and no cheap pikes.
A “coastal support” aura that boosts attack could make sense, but a speed boost just by being near a boat seems a little silly. The consequence of an ability like this is going to be that you get the maximum effect by plopping a boat down in a little slough on Great Plains which I would think goes against the spirit of the ability. Maybe an attack boost for a slight duration after disembarking would be a better implementation.
I would maybe also include a card or big button Dock tech that lets a wider variety of boats train units. Dugout Canoes could train Harpooners and Sailing Canoes could train Swivel Guns. That would somewhat make up for their Galleon equivalent not being available until age 3.
Barbs go hand in hand with warfare however harpoons normally have crazy big barbs (bigger than anything for war) to make sure the animal can be pulled in. The definition of harpoon is for long hunting spears with ropes attached so I’m not sure why this has to be a military unit other than the novelty element (which when looking at the Native Americans tribes we should be giving them the same attention to detail the Europeans have been given) .
Sea Otter Canoes (Yáxwch’i Yaakw) with harpooners throwing their harpoons at sea-based food and coins sources instead of standard fishing vessels seems a valid use of them. Ranged fishing!
Maybe whaling harpoons do, but fur seal spears certainly don’t. Something like this Haida harpoon head is fairly modest in size and more what I had in mind.
Their harpoon designs were essentially the same as Aleut weapons, and even the “throwing lances” meant for war were still used for hunting and operated along the same lines. You’ve got to be very nitpicky to say a throwing lance used for hunting with a detachable barbed head is meaningfully different from a harpoon.
The rope bit also doesn’t always trace back to the thrower, it’s usually attached to the shaft and/or float. This could even be an element of the design by giving them a ranged snare ability like Bolas Warriors.
Even if it isn’t 100% technically accurate, there are many good reasons to go with the name Harpooner.
The images below give a good idea of how they looked and were used.
Age of Empires 3 now has a much more complex unit system than what you presented. In fact, it is even difficult to standardize and categorize it, due to the large number of non-standard cases and combinations, but such a division as below seems to give some insight and comparison:
I gave an example of a unit for each category to make it easier to understand what the category exactly refers to. If you put units of individual nations on this template, you will see what “gaps” I mean (empty cells):
With such a comparison, we can see (for example) how similar the Aztec and Inca rosters are in terms of the gameplay roles of their units. It can also be helpful when designing your own nation, just to avoid repeating the same patterns and look for new, unconventional ideas.
Just thinking about the Haida/Tlingit War Chief. @M00Z1LLA, I know you mentioned he’d be similar to the Huad War Chief, but he’d probably want a different aura. I’m not sure if you already had anything in mind, but I came up with a few ideas for your consideration.
Some that the other WCs don’t have by default:
That would be fun.
There are accounts on how the Tlingit were much better marksman than the Russians with their muskets, reloading and firing quicker than them. They also had so many muskets/Rifles that it was said that they had two per warrior. A rate of fire boost could be a nice way to highlight that (maybe ranged rate of fire only?)
