Haida/Tlingit Civilization Concept

Background

The native peoples of the Pacific Northwest (PNW) have a rich and unique culture that would make for an excellent addition to the game. The best representatives of this culture are the Haida and Tlingit who were fierce warriors that raided along the coast in massive canoes and fought using a mix of modern firearms and traditional armours. This civilization would represent an amalgam of Haida, Tlingit, and Tsimshian peoples who shared a common culture of matrilineal clan structures, potlatch celebrations, coastal economies, intricate artwork like totems and armours, and raiding and captive taking. The specifics of this proposal lean more towards Haida being the face of this civilization because they were the best mariners who raided far beyond their homeland, are more centrally located, and have successfully exported their iconic artwork in modern times. However, Tlingit also have a strong case for being the civ’s namesake. They had a larger territory and population, and more coordinated confrontations with Western powers like the Russians, Americans, and British. But ultimately both groups have a largely shared culture with the main point of difference being language, so either one could be the name of the civilization.

Civilization Archetype

They should obviously follow the archetype of the Native civilizations, specifically, the northern North American ones. However, they should be able to mine normally, as they have a long history of metalworking of native copper and iron from shipwrecks and trade. To be fair, Haudenosaunee should also be able to mine normally as copper mining around the great lakes is ancient and there is no taboo against it like among the Lakota. Other elements would be shared like a tribal council instead of a home city and some buildings.

Leader

If the civ is labeled Tlingit, Ḵʼalyaan would be an obvious choice. He lead them against the Russians in the Battle of Sitka. If the civ is labeled Haida, Koyah would be a good pick. He was notorious for fighting against and capturing American vessels.

Buildings

Largely the same as Haudenosaunee with a few replacements.

Clam Garden

A “farming” building where villagers and/or fishing boats can gather food from clams and other marine animals. Supports 8 gatherers including fishing boats if built near enough to the shore. Visually, the building could appear as a tidal pool surrounded by a retaining rock wall and some drying racks.

Due to abundant marine and forest resources, PNW peoples traditionally did not practice agriculture so the aquaculture of Clam Gardens would serve as a replacement for Farms. The exception to this was tobacco, which had long been cultivated, and would justify the civ having Plantations. Without Farms, the food upgrades they provide would obviously be lacking, and those upgrades don’t really fit with Clam Gardens. Instead, Clam Gardens could have more focused upgrades that primarily improve the building itself with much milder effects to the general gathering of villagers and boats. The general food upgrades could be found at other buildings, mainly Totem Poles. For example, one of these upgrades could be Food Cache Pits.

Agriculture was eventually adopted when the Spanish brought potatoes to the Haida around 1800. However, this is a rather late development, so at most they could have limited access to Farms that is gated behind a card or technology.

Totem Pole

Totem Poles are one of the most iconic elements of PNW native culture, with some of the most elaborate coming from the Haida. They serve a variety of functions ranging from decoration, heraldry, commemorating people or events, welcome or warning signs, shaming people for debts or misdeeds, or simply displaying wealth.


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Representing the ancestral knowledge of culture, mythology, history, and kinship could be done by making Totem Poles the go to building for researching technologies. They could feature technologies and big button upgrades roughly equivalent to those found at the Church, Arsenal, Capitol, and Farm. This could be further reinforced by having newly constructed Totem Poles grant their first technology for free (similar to the Virginia General Assembly card). To balance this, Totem Poles would be limited to one per age and be unable to be deleted (like Manors). Destroying Totem Poles would therefore be detrimental as it would give an essentially free tech to enemy players.

In addition to a plethora of technologies, Totem Poles could have other advantages such as a large LoS to represent their use as a warning/welcome sign and a small experience trickle to represent their aesthetic beauty and cultural significance. Their function of shaming for misdeeds could be represented in a card that adds a debuff aura that weakens nearby enemy units or lowers enemy gather rates.

In terms of cost, they should be fairly cheap with a significant build time and relatively expensive technologies within.

Longhouse

Functionally similar to the Haud Longhouse, but visually distinct with a central totem pole (at least for later ages since there were variations without it).

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With the Haida/Tlingit missing Farms, they would be lacking a building with which to fatten livestock. This could be covered by a Salish Woolly Dogs big button technology at the Longhouse that grants Longhouses the ability to fatten livestock and grants them a small coin trickle. Dogs were the only domestic animal in the region, and Salish Woolly Dogs were raised for their fur and needed to be prevented from interbreeding with hunting dogs that lacked such woolly coats by keeping them within houses or separate islands.

Potlatch Plaza

An enhanced version of the Community Plaza, with an emphasis on the potlatch ceremony of feasting and gift giving to redistribute resources, foster connections, and display power. The main difference from the Community Plaza would be a Potlatch Ceremony that equalizes the stockpile of all resources (similar to the Balance of Powers royal house ability). This ability would be extremely powerful, so it could work gradually like how Lombards convert resources. Other civ specific ceremonies like a Carving Ceremony that speeds building and heals/buffs buildings could be included.

For better visual clarity, villagers and Medicine Men tasked to the Potlatch Plaza should wear the elaborate wooden masks similar to the ones shown below. This would actually give some visual feedback that they are working unlike the standing around at the Community Plaza.


Ultimately, the Community Plaza is just a lazy re-branding of the Fire Pit, and a more specific version for each civ that has one would be a huge improvement. Aztec and Inca could get a Temple Plaza, and Lakota and Hauds could get a Dance Plaza.

Shared Buildings

Town Center
Market
Plantation
Dock
Walls
Trade Post
Native Embassy
War Hut
Siege Workshop
Stronghold - Fortifications were common in the PNW and the Tlingit built forts such as Hoodsnahoo or Shis’g’i Noow (Green Wood Fort) that were capable of withstanding Russian cannon fire. The Haida had a fort which was outfitted with 18 cannons.

Units

General Units:

War Chief (most similar to Haud WC)
Medicine Man (Healer) - See amendment {Shaman}
Villager

War Hut Units:

Aquientor Archer

Aquientor is an Iroquioan term for a type of armour consisting of bound together sticks or wooden slats. Coincidentally, the west coast natives developed essentially the same type of armour. These guys would function as an archer with massive ranged resistance. Since this type of arms and armour was used by Iroquioan peoples, Aquientor Archers could be shared with Haudenosonee.


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Harpooner

See amendments {Harpooner} and {Seawolf Marine}

Harpooners would serve as a pike-musk hybrid with lower overall stats than a Musketeer, but a higher anti-cav multiplier. The people of the PNW used harpoons extensively to hunt aquatic animals, so this could be reflected by giving them a helmet adorned with a sea lion, orca, or shark.

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Raven Raider

See amendment {Raven Raider}

Ravens feature heavily in the mythology of the natives of the Pacific Northwest Coast, with a depiction as a supernatural creator and trickster. It is also an important part of their kinship structure with all people being part of one of two moieties of Raven or Eagle/Wolf.

Horses were unavailable to the Northwest Coast natives, and even if they had been, the mountainous terrain separated into numerous islands is entirely unsuitable for cavalry. Therefore shock infantry Raven Raiders would cover the melee cavalry role. Their stats could be very similar to Chimu Runners, with abilities such as stealth to represent the trickster archetype of ravens in their legends. Visually, they should have a raven crested helmet and wield a double ended dagger/sword. I’ve given them a bit higher siege attack and a bonus versus treasure guardians somewhat like the Hausa’s Raiders, but in this case the bonus makes a bit of sense since ravens like shiny treasures.

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Forest Prowler

The Forest Prowler is generic enough in name and appearance that it could work for both Hauds and Haida/Tlingit. The region is heavily forested so the name fits, and they went into battle with ##### #### paint very similar to how Haud Forest Prowlers are depicted. Firearms were a major trade item in the maritime fur trade, and the Haida and Tlingit were astute traders that only accepted the highest quality guns. Therefore, the powerful Forest Prowler is an accurate portrayal of PNW warriors.




Gaagiid Berserker

One of the most iconic elements of Pacific Northwest warfare is their suits of heavy wooden armour consisting of ornately carved wooden helmets and thick leather covered in wooden slats. The helmets were tall and thick with animal crests or monstrous features to intimidate enemies. One such monster was the Gaagiid of Haida mythology. Gaagiid are powerful, supernatural wildmen that became possessed after becoming lost in the woods or almost drowning. Nearby tribes such as the Salish called on malevolent spirits to whip them up into a berserk frenzy. This is strikingly similar to the feared berserkers of the Vikings, and the similarities don’t end there, since the Haida are often called the Vikings of the Pacific Northwest due to their frequent and far ranging raids.

I’ve gone with the name Gaagiid Berserker since it makes them more specifically Haida and fits the look, but simply calling them Berserkers could also do especially if the civ is named Tlingit. If that course is taken, Gaagiid could be made into an outlaw version of the unit alongside other semi-mythological native outcasts like Wendigos.

Functionally, this could work something like a Doppelsoldner but with exceptionally high melee armour. To offset this, they could have a lower speed and cavalry multiplier as well as a wood cost. Gaagiid Berserkers could be armed with heavy weapons like war picks, whalebone clubs, and hammers. Different stances could showcase different weapons.

After contact with the old world, these armours were further reinforced with newly available materials such as Chinese coins. This could be represented via a Qing Coin Armour card that grants +10% ranged armour to heavy infantry and swaps the Gaagiid Berserker’s wood cost with coin.




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Siege Workshop Units:

Ram

When it comes to sieging PNW fortifications, it was preferred to avoid direct frontal assaults and use less costly methods such as night attacks and treachery instead. However, sieges did happen, and they needed tools to batter their way into buildings. A ram is a fairly simple tool, and would have been well within the capabilities of the expert carvers in the region so it is a plausible weapon at their disposal. There are also many accounts of crafting logs into siege engines or hurling them down at enemies. For example, the Tsimshian chief Legex fashioned siege engines from hollowed out logs which were used to shield the besiegers as they approached a fort, and then were used as ramps to scale the walls. The Gitxsan chief Nekt used logs defensively by releasing them from atop palisades to roll down and crush attackers trying to scale the walls. These “man crushing logs” or similar defences of hurling down boulders or logs with sharpened branches were common tactics and could be grounds for a card or tech that lets Rams actually attack units.

Carronade

See amendment {Carronade}

Carronade

Both the Haida and Tlingit obtained cannons from trading and capturing European and American ships. There are accounts of cannon fire from Haida villages in response to ship bombardment. Tlingit also fired artillery at Russians besieging one of their forts. Since these cannons primarily came from ships, their main type of cannon should be a Carronade. This unit could be shared with other potential civilizations such as the Hawaiians and Maori.

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Light Cannon

See amendment {Swivel Gun}

Since the PNW tribes had such extensive access to artillery, it wouldn’t be out of the question to give them access to Light Cannons. If not directly trainable from the Siege Workshop, they should at least be attainable through a Stronghold tech that sends a few and/or an infinite shipment.

Dock Units:

Fishing Boat

Same old Fishing Boat as the other Native Civs.

Dugout Canoe

The PNW peoples did not use bark canoes like most other native tribes. Instead they used dugout canoes carved from large logs. There were several styles of dugout canoes, with the main kinds being a western style used by the Nootka and Chinook, and a northern style used by the Haida and Tlingit. The northern style would be the obvious choice, but since that depiction would be used for the larger vessels, the smaller basic dugout canoe could use the western style, or potentially an even more generic style. These would have plausibly been used since Haida canoes were a major trade good, and after trading away their canoes, the Haida would use old mainland canoes for their return voyages. Dugout Canoes could also serve as the boat that is enabled by allying with Nootka and Klamath, and they could replace regular Canoes for Aztecs, since all these peoples used dugout rather than bark canoes.

Functionally they could be similar to regular Canoes but slightly scaled up in stats and cost. They should be available in age 2, and the build limit could be lower than Canoes to reflect the higher stats and availability of other ships.

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War Canoe

The existing War Canoe is already based on the style of Canoe of the PNW, so obviously they should have access to it. Like other civs, it would be available in age 3, but it could have a slightly lower build limit to make room for other larger ship types.

Head Canoe

The massive red cedars on the west coast were used to build canoes of an immense scale. They could reach a length of 20 meters and fit a crew of 60 paddlers. The main hull was hewn from a single large log, and the largest canoes known as Head Canoes were further built up with decorative crests attached to the bow and stern and widened beyond the original diameter of the tree by forming the wood with steam. The best of these canoes were built by the Haida since they had access to the best cedars and had to navigate the most treacherous waters, but they also traded them to their neighbours.

Naval battles were traditionally conducted by firing ranged weapons like slings and bows or by boarding and engaging in savage melee. These canoes were also outfitted with large stones called canoe breakers that were hurled at enemy vessels to smash them apart. This could be represented by a canoe breaker charged attack that deals massive damage and stuns its target, but at a shorter range than a broadside. Head Canoes should be available in age 3 and would cover the roles of both Galleons and Frigates, with a charged attack, powerful combat capability, and the ability to train all War Hut units.

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Sailing Canoe

Canoes of the PNW did not traditionally have sails, but they were quickly adopted after they saw their use on European ships. In later accounts of conflicts, sailing canoes are commonplace. Another technology adopted from Europeans was the mounting of artillery on canoes. These were primarily smaller pieces like swivel guns, but they were powerful enough to split canoes, so at least some of them would have likely been fairly substantial. Sailing Canoes could feature as an age 4 naval unit that features both of these innovations as the pinnacle of canoe technology. The large crests of Head Canoes hindered mobility under sail and were eventually phased out. Therefore, Sailing Canoes could be depicted slightly smaller, but with a large forward pointing swivel gun. With this configuration, they could serve the role of bombardment vessel like Monitors and Cannon Boats. But instead of being tanky with long range, it could be maneuverable with moderate range but faster RoF.

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Fire Canoe

See amendment {Fire Canoe}

Cards

See comment for a list of some potential cards.

12 Likes

Cards

Qing Coin Armour - Heavy infantry gain 10% ranged resist and their wood cost is replaced with coin

Blackfish - Ships a whale and a pet Orca

Chinook Jargon - Makes Trading Posts, Embassies, and native units cheaper and stronger

Copper Shields - War Hut units and heroes are stronger but cost more. Villagers gather coin faster.

Gambling Sticks - Pay wood and coin for a random assortment of outlaws and mercenaries

Kangyet Logs - Rams are stronger and gain the ability to attack units in melee

Steam Formed Hulls - Cheaper boats

Grease Trails - Increased trade route income and fish yield

Bostonmen Arms Traders Arms Trade - Improve the attack of all gunpowder units

Basket Weaving - Improves yield of natural resources

Chilkat Blankets - Villagers are cheaper and stronger

Klondike Gold Rush - Sends a prospector wagon and some Miners

Bentwood Boxes - Ships 330 food and all future crates contain 10% more

Drift Iron - Increased melee attack of all War Hut units

Shame Pole - Enemy unit attack speed is reduced near Totem Poles

Otter Endurance - War Hut units move faster and have slightly more health (based on training in cold water)

Greenwood Construction - Improve building health

Tsimshian Signal Fires - All defensive buildings have greater LoS and gain increased attack from garrisoned units. Warriors spawn more quickly from the Plaza and can garrison in War Huts.

Haida Potato Trade - Ships crates of food and a Farm Travois (infinite)

Salmon Run - Ships a school of fish to your water shipment pointbel

Captured Ships - Ships Sloops and a Monitor

Nootka Allies - Ships Nootka Clubmen (infinite)

Nez Perce Allies - Ships Bow Riders

Kwakulti Secret Societies - Medicine Men dance more effectively at the Plaza and a have a stronger melee attack

Raven Clan - Ships Raven Raiders and buffs them

Eagle Clan - Ships a villagers proportional to those lost and buffs villager speed

Duelling Champions - Ships two Gaagiid Berserkers and improves their attack

Spirit Bear - Ships a black bear with a white coat and enables your War Chief to retrain it

Harpoon Guns - Harpooners and Swivel Guns gain 2 range. Swivel Guns now fire harpoons that snare instead of shot.

Renegade Russians - Ships Cossack Daredevils

5 Likes

if Tlingit, given how they often dominated other tribes of the areas, there could be even via age up opportunities for some references to the Ahtan for eco/mining, eyak for culture/tech rates being researched, Han Hwech’in for trade posts, Haida for naval prowess, etc. Lots of ways to expand the roster with limited native alliances a la AR civs,. Not everyone’s preferred system, but if the civ would go that way lots of history and reference can be utilized.

for an eco-gimmick, given how to eat one food was considered “poor” or “poverty” perhaps having nearby eco buildings bonus off each other? like if you place a farm eq, mine, and chop within range of oh say a totem pole they all get buffed 5% gather or yield per another building? To represent how they maximized all available food options? just something that tickles the sim city folks while also rewarding map control would be interesting and culturally appropriate imho.

Cool stuff! definetly these tribes often get overshadowed by the salish tribes, but from a power point of view the haida and espeically the tlingit dominated a huge strech of land, with ramifications across a populated area that was not given much hisotry or thought until recently.

Looks great.

I’ve always pushed the Haida as they were the more exciting of PNW tribes (they were extremely active coastal raiders and were known for attacking and capturing Euro/American ships along with), however they were culturally very similar to Tlingit and often launched raids with them to capture poor Coast Salish tribes, plus Tlingit held the most territory and also fought the Russians.

For that reason Tlingit are probably the best choice for main PNW tribe focus. Other historically linked ones like the Haida can be used as a ‘Potlach’ ally - possibly as a Native Embassy options and even Native American mercenaries (which hasn’t really be done).

I’ve always loved PNW armoured warriors (ever since the old RTS American Conquest and the Haida civ - really niche at the time), so to see them in this game would be awesome.

Salish wooly dogs would be a fantastic livestock replacement.

2 Likes

They can be added in form of cards, like the other native american ones, the ones costing gold plus units. Meanwhile, some can become minor tribes for maps

Excellent civ concept! There are some very good ideas. I’ve always thought a pacific north-west civ would be a great addition to the game. However, I’m not a fan of putting them all in the same bag as an umbrella civ. I think either the Haidas or Tlingits should be a main civ, while the other could be introduced as a new minor civ to keep company to the nootkas!:slight_smile: Their cultural and territorial proximities could be referenced through cards.

The clam garden is a nice idea, but I would only allow it to be built on a shore, just like the dock. The terrain should get elevated so that the villagers can actually walk on it. I imagine something like this:

Now we must keep in mind that this building would require water in order to be buildable. On some maps, where there’s no water and scarce hunts, they could be in serious disadvantage. I see you added an infinite farm shipment, which is good, but I’d add one or two deer shipments to compensate.

As for the totem poles, there’s no doubt they should be added in some way. However, I don’t think they should be the place to research techs. I think an interesting and unique way of representing them would be as a building extension. All building, or maybe only a select few, could have a totem annexed to it for a cost. Different buffs could be given depending on the totem type you choose. I don’t have much knowledge of totem poles in north-western cultures, but I’ve found some totem types on wikipedia. For example:

-The house frontal pole could give a small hp increase in a radius, similar to the teepee.

-The mortuary pole could resurrect your warchief at no cost after a cooldown following his death and give him a temporary buff idk?

-The memorial pole could simply give an xp trickle.

-The welcome or Shame pole could reduce the enemy’s movement speed or defense in a radius.

These are just exemples. I think the option to choose between different types of poles individually for each building would be the best way to introduce them.

The military seems good, but I think instead of the harpooner, I’d give them some kind of very tanky musketeer unit, with both ranged and melee armor, but low speed and medium damage.

Your navy proposition is great, they obviously should have the best navy among native civs.

Again, great concept. The devs should definitely consider adding a PNW civ to the game.

I was going to suggest this too.

My suggestions for infantry line-up would be:

(Ignore names - I’d want authentic names. These are just placeholders but give a gist of the roles)

  • Wooden-slat Armoured Musketeer (Musket Heavy Infantry role) - uses warclub in melee (tanky, high-ranking warrior)
  • Wooden-slat Armoured (double) Dagger (Halberdier-role) (tanky, high-ranking warrior)
  • Spearman (Pikemen-role) - Seal/Elk skin armour + wooden helmet (depicting novice warrior)
  • Bowman (Light Infantry / Archer-role) - unarmoured + conical hat (depicting novice warrior)
  • Tlingit Marksman (Light Infantry / Gunpowder-role) - unarmoured (depicting crackshot, established warriors)
  • Warpick and shield Warrior - Chinese Coin armoured (very high-ranking and wealthy warrior)

*Shaman - a healer type

Of course, you could pretty much have all unit type Armoured (wooden) or unarmoured (Seal skins) as it’s really more of a thing that differentiates ranking/status. With that in mind you could have a Warhut to train novice, unarmoured and cheap warriors and a higher status Warhut to train the same roster but more expensive and far tankier as one of their quirks, but this probably convolutes things.

From the original suggestions, I’d probably remove the Carronade - the Light Cannon covers the general artillery basis for a native civ. Carronades would fairly short-ranged and a little niche. Light Cannons is a broad term but it would certainly cover the guns taken from stolen Schooners and Sloops.

Seems very well done! It seems unique and I actually really like the idea of expensive powerful techs that can be gotten for free.

I believe I did notice a lack of a consistent light cav equivalent unit. I might suggest letting the bow rider card allowing them to be trained at the native embassy. Otherwise an ERK-type unit would seem nice. Maybe a high hp light ranged shock infantry with a low attack but higher bonuses against hand cav (ie tanky but only effective at killing what it counters).

I like the naval focus on a native civ. And the food building that fishing boats and vills can work at is really cool!

That’s what a lot of the popular artwork depicts, but from the sources I’ve read I have some doubts about the accuracy.

I didn’t come across any accounts of combining both wooden armour and guns. It seems like it fell out of use after firearms were introduced since it doesn’t really protect against them and would just reduce mobility. There are some mentions of heavy leather armour stopping a pistol shot though.

That would be accurate but I think that’s overdoing the heavy infantry. That’s why I made the double dagger guys shock infantry since the civ needs something for that role.

War spears were one of their main weapons but that’s also true of basically every civ everywhere. I was initially considering it but couldn’t find a good name other than something super generic like “armoured spearman” or calling them that in Haida or Tlingit which would be a mouthful. Spears were only part of a warrior’s armament and they would be cast aside once it was thrust into an enemy and became stuck. That use isn’t too far off their hunting harpoons, so that’s why I decided to go with a Harpooner unit. It is admittedly also a pretty generic name, but I can’t really think of another civ that’s likely to have harpoon armed warriors so it’s unique in that regard. Harpooners also covered the role of countering heavy cav from range which spearmen wouldn’t be able to do.

Armoured bowmen are actually one of the more well documented parts of their warfare that I could find. Their wooden armour provide complete protection from arrows and they were especially effective from fortified positions. They are also pretty close to armoured Iroquois warriors so they could be shared with them. And that would let them have a cool name like “Aquientor Archer”. I wouldn’t want to throw that away for a generic archer.

I just don’t see how this is meaningfully different from Forest Prowlers. The unit fits very well and I don’t see a reason to reinvent the wheel for this.

Shields actually weren’t used by the very heavily armoured warriors (or much at all really since their copper shields were mostly ceremonial). But the rest of the features are what I was going for with the Gaagiid Berserker.

Shaman would be good too. Anything is better than “Healer” like they’re called now.

Light Cannons would be accurate enough, but I want to have some continuity with other potential civs who gained artillery from captured ships and trade like Hawaiians and Maoris. For those civs, Carronades would make sense, but Light Cannons wouldn’t.

Ideally Light Cannons should also be more niche than they currently are so that they’re easier to balance for different civs. If they lacked the x2 vs infantry by default and needed cards unique to Hauds to get it they could be more of a generalist Culverin equivalent. Then it would be less of a balance concern to make them accessible to civs like Inca, or even age 3 shipments of them for Hauds. That would make them focused enough for Haida/Tlingit to have both Carronades for the falc role, and Light Cannons for the Culverin role.


Nah they kept using them, particularly early on these kind of armours could still stop musket balls. Rifling it was a different story.

From the research I did way back when I remember they got their hand on Berços (called Murderers in that part of the world if I remember correctly?) so that’s another option for artillery, which for a native american civ is impressive.

I just wanna see the unique unit names, I need me some Sto:Mex in my life.

2 Likes

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“The Battle of Old Sitka, June, 1802”, by Ray Troll.

The Tlingit, Haida and other Pacific Northwest Coast tribes continued to use wooden armour to the very end of the AOE3 time-span (19th century) whilst Northeast groups such Hurons and Haudenosaunee dropped their use of it as soon as guns appeared to them in the 17th century. This is because the ‘gun frontier’ (i.e. contact with guns) happened much later than many other native groups and lastly becuase PNWC armour was much better than other wooden armours, with solid wooden visored helmets, slat armour often with rod armour for less important areas (such as sides), often combined with thick elk robes to give even more protection. The Hauds on the other hand just used Rod armour which was weaker, covered less of their body and they (along with other woodland natives) dropped armour extremely quickly upon meeting Europeans due to gun trade.

Just to address the wooden armour wearing along with guns:

An excerpt from Russian historian named Khlebnikov on Russian-Tlingit conflict:

The Tlingits “suddenly emerged noiselessly from the shelter of the impenetrable forests, armed with guns, spears and daggers. Their faces were covered with masks representing the heads of animals, and smeared with red and other paint; their hair was tied up and powdered with eagle down. Some of the masks were shaped in imitation of ferocious animals with gleaming teeth and of monstrous beings. They were not observed until they were close to the barracks; and the people lounging about the door had barely enough time to rally and run into the building when the (Tlingits), surrounding them in a moment with wild and savage yells, opened a heavy fire from their guns at the windows. A terrific uproar was continued in imitation of the cries of the animals represented by their masks, with the object of inspiring greater terror.”*

The masks are reference to the huge wooden helmets they wore on top of their suit which they would have almost certainly wore here.

Muskets would certainly be used with the armour, especially as the warriors arms were free.
The Spanish artist Tomás de Suría documented contemporay sketches of Tlingit warriors (1791-ish) and said:

The fighting Indians wear all their arms, a breast-plate, back armor, a helmet with a visor or at least what serves that purpose.

He is also the same chap that sketched the image you used:


Which shows that the armoured warriors ‘wear all their arms’, went bare-armed to use weaponary - in that case using a bow - a far more strenous weapon than a musket.

That’s fair enough. As long as it’s depicted with the amour and double daggers, I’m happy :smiley: - it would effectively be one of their only forms of (abstract) cavalry)

Harpooner sounds a little too much like a fantasy unit. They don’t necessarily need to be armoured especially if we use lower-ranking warriors. For example you could call them Kanackideh (Commoner-class) or Nitckakakun (low-class) Spearmen and just have them wear Elk skins (effectively a laminate of leathers). Class/rank was shown very much through wealth and materials so the higher class Anyaddi are more likely to be the owners of fine wooden armours.

That’s fine. Again, as its down to class of warrior it can either be armoured or wearing just skins (though armored is always more fun). Haud warriors dropped the use of armour on getting guns unlked PNWC tribes so they would be instantly dated in the AOE3 timeframe.

I agree - it would be very much the same unit, though I would suggest a different skin. Either Elk skins and conical hat or bear skins (as below):

Via Tomás de Suría:

The dress of the men is as I have stated, of various skins, the most ordinary
being of black bear, and very hairy. When it rains and they have no hats they
cover their heads with the same skin of the head of a bear, which makes them
look like some Hercules.

Yeah, that’s my mistake. I think even the shields were just called ‘coppers’ and just refered to as shields because of shape really.

Yup. The Shaman, or rather 'Ix̲t’ 'helped in villages and would also accompany war parties. They used drums and chants to bolster warriors so in-game they could play a rather benefical part aside from the standard healing.

I get that, though Carronades were super specialist ( a short-ranged anti-ship ‘puncher’) and only really used by British and Americans. They also had no field carriage version and also if you’re introducing a new European artillery, we’ll get lots of Euro players after it for their civ :stuck_out_tongue:

The Light Cannon in its defense is just a light gun that could be taken from a ship (Natives would certainly not be taking the long guns for example - they would be a logistical nightmare, especially with poor access to horses). It’s a fairly broad category depicted.

I guess the other alternative is ‘Captured’ versions of Falconets and Culverins without the horse-limbering.

Another solution could be Light Cannon-only access however you could ship a ‘Hudson Bay partners’ shipment that could allow you buy Falcs/Culverin from your Trade Posts. Historically various trade groups were quite happy trading muskets and even cannons to the Tlingit.

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I was mainly referring to the slat armour, which that doesn’t mention. All the mentions of their armour stopping bullets describes multi layered cured moose or elk hides as what’s actually effective. The account you provided obviously shows helmets still being used but still doesn’t mention body armour. The helmets have the additional function of striking fear in the enemy and making the warriors appear larger, so they could still be useful even if they didn’t stop bullets.

The book with an account of an armoured archer describes a whole bunch of Haida battles, and armour is only mentioned in the older stories that occured before access to guns. Maybe the Tlingit used it longer though.

That’s perfectly fine, the archer is supposed to be an archaic unit. There’s also more than 100 years of pre-contact warfare, so it’s not instantly dated. They probably were used just as long as longbows. I’m also still not convinced PNW tribes abandoned their wooden slat armour any less quickly than Hauds. They just retained the leather armour and tried to innovate with things like Chinese coin armour, but I don’t see evidence of continuing use of wooden armour. But if you have more sources that prove me wrong I’d love to see them.

I’d say these guys should be lightly armoured with just a helmet and cuirass. The daggers could also show up as a sidearm of other units. For example, sending the Drift Iron card could give them to the light infantry.

I don’t see how it is fantasy. Harpoons are a common hunting implement that everyone would have had. With the way warfare was waged they would have absolutely been used in battles. Most of the time they were ambushes so the defenders would have been scrambling to defend with what they had on hand. In naval engagements even war spears would have likely been thrown in an initial volley when closing the gap with an enemy canoe.

Even with another heavy infantry unit I still think Harpooners would be a necessary component to their roster. The civ needs a ranged counter for heavy cav. I’ve gone with a more lean roster and combined it’s role with the spearman, but if there was another archaic heavy infantry, then I’d probably move Harpooners to be ranged shock infantry.

In my opinion “commoner spearman” is just a really lame name. I’d also prefer untranslated names where possible so that the civ can be inclusive as possible and have most units plausibly be Haida, Tlingit, or Tsimshian. Moving Harpooners to be ranged shock infantry would free up room for another basic heavy infantry, but I think that should be some kind of “armoured musketeer” with a spear sidearm for melee otherwise the roster would be overloaded with heavy infantry. A name like Ta’xet Ambusher could work for a unit like that.

I’d limit it to some visual changes through cards, such as the Drift Iron card giving them a different sidearm.

There’s nothing currently called Shaman so it could simply use that name. A more unique role like that would be cool.

That’s exactly the role I want for them (the stats I gave were more tailored to my Maori suggestion so it could be tweaked a little). Basically something for the falc role, maybe with a little less range but more AoE and a bonus vs ships. I’m envisioning something salvaged from a captured ship, so a home made carriage made from lashed together logs and carried around like a Mortar would be a great fit. A home made chassis would make it not suitable for European civs so that could mute those requests. I’d want them to be accessible to Maori, Hawaiians, and Haida/Tlingit, and all of them interacted primarily with British and American ships so it makes sense for them to have them.

Absolutely, I came across several reliable accounts of them obtaining swivel guns. That actually might be preferable to Light Cannons since it could have a more niche role that’s easier to balance. Swivel Guns could work like a scaled down Culverin equivalent and Carronades could cover the Falconet role. Both of those units could probably work for a Hawaiian civ too.

Please no, “captured ____” is such a copout. HBC also didn’t operate in the region until very late in the game. The Carronades I’m suggesting would also be “captured”, but they’d actually be something unique.

I meant for the Bow Riders to be a one time thing. The Nez Perce were the closest tribe with cavalry but they’re still so far away it’s pretty much fantasy that they would have interacted.

My intention was for the Harpooner to be the light cav equivalent (sorta like Bolas Warriors). But it could also make sense to have Harpooners as ranged shock infantry instead of heavy infantry and then give them another armoured musketeer for that role.

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Seems reasonable. Potentially wouldn’t even need a musk. I rather like Bolas Warriors, though Inca’s lack of a light cav unit sometimes causes issues since it leaves the majority of your military weak to artillery.

For Huad, light cannons in age 4 are great for late game, but Musket Riders and Kenya Horsemen are both super important earlier to kill cannons.

Personally, I’d be hesitant to leave a civ without Goons, or a long-range anti-artillery in age 3. It’d seem like an easy fix. You could even go the unique route and make Harpooners a ranged shock infantry that’s available in age 2.

Having said that, the write up seemed great! I like the uniqueness of free techs and tanky units. The clams as a food source is really cool. Would be epic to build clam gardens on some of the desert maps!

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My intention was for it to be build able on land (maybe also like docks as you suggest). It’s not the most realistic on some landlocked maps, but I think balance concerns trump that. Having it be too map dependent could make them both too weak on land maps but also too strong on water maps.

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Tlingit and pretty much all Pacific Northwest Coast tribes used muskets a lot so it would it would be similar to taking away Lakota’s horses :grin:

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On wiki, houses of the Pacific Northwest natives are simply called plank houses. And this is what Haida architecture looks like in American Conquest:

This would be better for Age of Mythology than Age of Empires. Maybe you should look for something based more on weapons than mythical creatures. Like Yumi Archer, Changdao Swordsman, Qiang Pikeman etc.

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Plank houses are a type of longhouse. Regular houses have half a dozen different skins, so it should be fine to have a couple different types of longhouse.

I’m not suggesting Gaagiid Berserkers be actual mythological creatures. They wear helmets with monstrous faces carved into them, and some tribes work themselves into a fighting frenzy that they attribute to spirits. They’re regular human warriors dressed to intimidate their enemies.

I only hinted at a separate Gaagiid outlaw unit that could be a Haida representative if Tlingit is the name of the civ. Much like the Wendigo, there’s an element of real outlaws that became mythologized.

I meant naming. Since the term “plank house” seems to be sufficiently distinguished and associated with this cultural group, there is no reason to focus on the much more general “longhouse” (and doubling it with the Iroquois) when we can use a new, unique name (as there is no building named “plank house” in AoE3).

Most of similar motifs in animistic beliefs are based in their roots on more mundane representations than their mythological or modern depictions. But this is not yet a reason to juggle such terms in a historical game. Especially since in this case the need to use it results only from a desperate search for an adjective to attach to a general word like warrior, soldier, archer, spearman, or finally… berserker.

If, due to the lack of unique proper names, you are forced to search for some (even if sometimes slightly far-fetched) adjectival names, it is really a better choice to rely on the names of weapons, social classes, ethnic groups etc, as this coincides with the naming convention used in AoE3. Unit naming based on mythological creatures, characters or deities is a convention more suited to AoM.

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Great concept! I serisouly love the potlatch plaza resource equalising mechanic. What an awesome, unique, and impactful economic unique power!

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