That’s why we need a solution to the pop efficiency of infantry in the lategame. I’d like to see a or two tech reducing infantry housing space. This would somehow solve the soultion.
Some strong infantry civs like goths don’t get the housing space reduction cause they don’t need it to be competitive in the lategame.
But I made some tests with the HC and figured out that ther dps isn’t their prob, neither their accuracy. If microed they have too much overkill expecially against infantry.
And you want to micro them, because the only situation they can be usefull are lategame inf floods you need to fight gold efficient. Since siege lacks any mobilty and can’t be garrisoned you want smaller groups of hc or archers to fight back the smaller raiding groups of your oppoent and hop into your tcs + bring the other goups in to reinforce if you are outnumbered at one location.
Atm it’s too hard to make this work with hc because of all this overkill + too long reload. And even if you can make it work, it is not a good unit in bigger scales, so you can’t push with them as good as you can with the power units.
Ironically for the larger scales and open field battles it would actually help hc to give them 1 minimum range, so they could auto spread out if you stop microing them. For microing this wouldn’t impact their performance much, but it would make them more usefull after you fought back the infantry flood succesfully.
So my conclusion after the tests: Don’t increase their damage or hp, it wouldn’t impact their utility but could make them OP if it is increased too much.
Instead:
Increase their speed, so they can poke standard infantry.
Reduce their damage and bonus damage, so they have less overkill
Reduce their accuracy or make special attacks like “curtain fire” available to make them better in larger scales, make missing shots deal full damage
give them back 1 minimum range
make them fire faster
It’s a lot of changes, but all adressing their main issues, they become really bad in bigger scales and are also not that micro revarding in smaller ones, easily killed if just slightly outnumbered.
The Changes wouldn’t affect their utility as lategame backline addition to your cav, but make them finally a good counter to mass infantry as they should be.
why? Infantry aren’t intended to fight equal to knights and Archers. and Frankly Infantry fair better against Cavalry then they do Archers. Archers straight up murder Infantry without any chance for the Infantry to fight back.
it’s literally right in the tech tree that Infantry is supposed to lose to archers and knights, they are support units in this game.
I’m sorry, but they have knights and they have skirms. they aren’t that vulnerable, they are just a bad civ at the top level.
either way - you give a tech that makes infantry half pop to other civs and guess what? champs are going to be an even bigger hard counter to goths.
i fully agree with this analysis. slow attackspeed it what most holds the unit back.i would give the spanish gunpoweder attackspeed bonus to hand cannons as baseline. or create a gunpoweder sort of thumb ring that does that. how you ever heard of the OP spanish hand cannon? me neither…
The problem is that pike line is mostly fine, they just have issues countering paladins… half pop would make them a very good options and make it a lot harder to cav civs.
If i could choose, i would make militia line gold free and them see if there is room for gold discount for infantry UU
well yeah, paladins cost an arm and a leg, i would hope pikes would struggle a little bit against them.
huge boost to civs who really don’t need that huge a boost. also what do you do about Malay?
also, the other units who are goldless all are ofset by various restrictions, like having relatively low attack. can you imagine Aztec, Malian, Japanese Champs? as goldless? how do you beat that cost effectively. let alone what it would do to goths.
Well still i find paladin too strong, and now burgundians hace them half priced. Luckly with the new update i find CA counters them more often
Malay, just change the bonus, give their militia more health like el dorado or make them traín faster
How to Beat them? HC is a option for many cav civs, there also many UU with Anti infantry bonus, archers wouldnt have a lot of problems… maybe give a bonus against the militia line to hussar line or pike line
Also You could make them goldless with a tech in castle age or reduce the number of civs that can get both champs and BF
yeah, and they don’t get bloodlines which means camels are even more cost effective against them then normal, and they fall off against other cavalry civs.
Vikings already have more health Infantry.
yeah HC becomes available in Imperial age. what do you do before Imperial Age?
yeah archers still beat them but what about Malian? Archers aren’t gonna beat them.
and here we have a radical change in game design. as it stands now Militia beats most trash units. you’d have us completely change that on its head.
and yet more changes to the game. no thanks. sounds like a balance nightmare.
Are You saying that now You can Beat malians with archers or that Malay goldless 2hs is broken?
Also bulgarians have a UT that gives extra armor to their militia, is not that the same as teutones by your logic? Devs certanly didnt mind
The Game is already a balance nightmare around infantry, thats why You have Big bonuses for them (not that it makes them very popular), and it does affect not only infantry, but Anti infantry units that hardly have a spot in the Game
I’m saying multiple things. if the Militia line costs only food, how do archer civs beat Malians?
what about civs who lack good archers do against food only Militia?
its an Insane buff to goths who can flood the field with pure numbers even easier.
Malay lose what makes their infantry unique, and your proposed buffs are already used by Vikings.
maybe devs didn’t mind, but i’d rather not see more homogenization of the game. and a lot of people seem to agree, if you pay attention when civ bonuses and what not are discussed.
thats because Infantry is. and always has been support units in this game, so giving them big bonuses doesn’t matter as much. its not meant to be the core of your army.
you’re acting as if the Militia line is supposed to compete with archers and knights and i can tell you that even the tech tree says that isn’t true.
Yes, militia isn’t designed to compete with them, at least when it comes to pop efficiency.
But I don’t see a reason why there shouldn’t be a infantry power unit which could compete at least with the knight line. In Addition I don’t see why infantry is less pop efficient than cavalry, it makes no sense.
I think it would benefit the game if there would be a infantry power unit that is much more goldluster than the militia.
and think about what that does to balance. so knights and infantry would compete against each other, but the infantry wouldn’t stand a chance against archers. so those civs would be bad against archer civs. makes zero sense balance wise. if you’re gonna change the way balance works you need to change it for ALL sides, not just part of the equation.
because heavy cavalry traditionally had lots of training and armor. Infantry not so much.
also about this - here is the thing about power units. if you fall behind against cavalry, you can make pikes to kill them cost effectively and try to get back in a game.
if you fall behind against archers you can make skirms to get back in a game.
what do you make against the hypothetical power infantry?
trash + siege, HC, any unit + siege, (cav) archers. Also militia line should be an option if the unit design is good, at least when it comes to gold efficiency.
trash won’t do crap against them. but the point is that the other options have GOLDLESS Options to dig yourself back into a game. what were your answers to a power infantry?
Hand Cannons - not available until imperial age, and require gold, and some civs don’t have it.
Siege - which is very time expensive to make, and gold expensive as well.
and cav archers/archers - again gold, cav archers are expensive and slow to train, and some civs just don’t have good archers.
so you have to tech into the militia line, how long is that tech swap going to take? and how expensive is it going to be. furthermore if your “Power infantry” is going to be good enough to compete against CAVALRY, it should be good enough to beat the Militia line…
and all time consuming, gold costing options. see the problem?
No. The Gold efficiency is the selling point of the militia line atm, a heavy infantry would be much more goldluster and should be traded gold efficient against with the militia line, so there is not prob with that all other counter strats cost gold, because the unit itself is also more goldluster.
If you want to play around the out of gold condition the militia line is still the much better option.
Half pop infantry… is this for real? Putting the whole karambit issue aside, we get a pretty big problem, infantry civs would become too good. Either you make their infantry not half pop, but then they can be overwhelmed with half pop infantry civs. What’s the point of being an infantry civ then 11. Or you nerf every infantry UU into the ground, as well as every infantry bonus but then so little would differentiate infantry civs from non infantry civs.
The reason the halberdier upgrade was added to the game was so that this statement would be false.
I wonder why Malay don’t get champs…
It’s called El Dorado eagles and it triggers half the player base to no end 11111 are you sure you still want buffed infantry Other infantry units like berserk or serjeants can be a viable full army, and pretty much every infantry unit can wreck house if used correctly. Only samurai and teutonic knights (and maybe karambits) truely lag behind.
Funnily enough it’s already the case about the aforementioned eagle. Now try to say “just make champs” in an El Dorado complain thread and not get ganged on 11