[Helping weak civs] some minor ideas for improvements

[Sylux1000]

Does the Persian bonus affect the scout line?

[francisco2002]

No it doesn’t. I have just edited. Thanks

[Sylux1000]

Actually giving the Turks a similar bonus on scout lines is not a bad idea

[francisco2002]

@Sylux1000

Actually giving the Turks a similar bonus on scout lines is not a bad idea

But then just remember that huzar is actually free.
I can’ t deny that it might be a good idea for burmese for example, but for turks it might be too much light cav bonuses.
Huzars already perform good against those units, doesn’t they?

[francisco2002]

@OliveCereal4714

Burmese were balanced arround howda giving 2pa to elephants. It was their answer against archers.

It’s actually 1 pierce armor and 1 melee.

[DoctBaghi]

@Sylux1000

Italians (land): archer armor techs are free. This is to help their weak land early game by following their identity of archers with armor. Nice if their UT would affect skirms again, to close this idea of armored archers. Importantly, late game and pure water game would be untouched.

Mmm free armor upgrades would help, but not that much in my opinion, in another discussion I proposed to lower the training of GC, as for pavise affecting the skirms, that’s now Lituanians’ UT, that’s why in that discussion I proposed to extend it to condos.

@Sylux1000

Burmese: monasteries and monks are available in feudal age.

I’m sorry, but hard no, with their bonus, having monks in feudal would mean that they will always win the relics war, since they can also see where they are. Maybe something else.

@Sylux1000

Turks:

Could work, I made a topic too some days ago if someone is interested.

Turk buff for games outside of arena

Continuing again the discussions about a balance directed toward more differentiate civs in online games, turks are the next. Problems of the turks Turks are a strong imp civ, but often struggle to get there since they lack counter-trash units (pikes and ES), expecially they struggle to cost effective counter archers in the long run, they got manganels for castle age, but they lack onagers, so in the end they have to go for hussars, which yes, they get them FU and with free upgrades, a stron…

[francisco2002]

@DoctBaghi

Mmm free armor upgrades would help

Free archer armor upgrades would be op. They would just win the feudal archer rushes easily and save resourses to go castle age EVEN easier and faster than they already do.
They already have a good %15 discount to go next age.

[francisco2002]

@DoctBaghi

in another discussion I proposed to lower the training of GC

Can someone explain whats the bad thing about genoese crosbows? They have a crazy +7 against all mounted units. It’s super effective en my opinion but I still would like to hear why you guys say it should be buffed.

[LordPatito8258]

I know. It uses to be 2pa.

And believe me. Turks die to a good archer civ.

[francisco2002]

Well i mean massed longbows are super hard for a lot of civs but remember turks also have plus range on their bombard cannons (their imp tech).

Free huzars kill archers and siege
Jenizaries and hand cannoneers kills infantry
Camells kill knights
Bombard cannons kills siege and archers aswell.
They have also siege ram to help against archer civs.

Its a fact that not having elite skirm is tough, but they still have options in my opinion.

[DoctBaghi]

It’s not properly a buff, it’s because you have to train them from a caste (which take a lo to build) to counter units from a stable, now each GC takes 22s, a knight 30s, all other UU archers take on average 16-18s.
So since it’s a lot more easy to spam stable than castles, and since a GC 1v1 can’t still beat a knight, you struggle to mass them.

Here is a post where I explain it better.

2 small changes to the italians civ

With the new patch out, I wanted to start some discussions about the balance’s problems of some civs that, in my opinion, needs to be adressed. I’ll start with the italians for 2 reason, one, they are among my favorite civs (along with spanish and bizantines) and two, I already discussed some of those arguments in past on some pre-pacth discussion (so it’s easyer to remember everything). So here they are: Give their Fishing Ships their +2LoS bonus back, in top of their discount So in the a…

[LordPatito8258]

I really don’t understand why people keep saying BBC is a counter to archer, Specially Brittish. And HC + hussar is a really bad combo against halbs +archers.

[francisco2002]

@DoctBaghi

now each GC takes 22s, a knight 30s, all other UU archers take on average 16-18s.

But other archer unique units don’t have such an insane bonus damage as genoese crosbow have. And looks like italians are really bad without genoese crosbows at castle age but in my opinipn they are not that bad. They also have knight with full upgrades and bloodlines. Its a fact that italiams are better at imperial age, but they still have cool things for the early game.

[francisco2002]

@OliveCereal4714

I really don’t understand why people keep saying BBC is a counter to archer,

You should try it yourself as well. Bombard cannons have a splash damage that is really nice against archers.
Its not like the perfect counter unit but they are still good, the bad thing is they get oneshoted mostly, but they have longer range than archers.
And huzars are actually good unit.

You just need to micro better than your opponent

[DoctBaghi]

They don’t have that’s much until castle age, and chukos, longbow and janissarys counter knights (and a lot of other units) as good as GC, while takin a lot less to be trained.
GC have a good bonus, but they still can’t win 1v1, they need a critical mass, and now you struggle to reach that mass, knights will always outnumber you.
Read my posts on the link, there are some videos too to prove my point and all the math.

[LordPatito8258]

@francisco2002

You should try it yourself as well.

Man, are you kidding me? Why do you asume everyone is a noob? Ofcourse I’ve tried. And anyone with the minimum micro can dodge a bombard cannon shot with archers. Specially British one.

[francisco2002]

@DoctBaghi

They don’t have that’s much until castle age

There is a lot of civs that don’t have that much before castle age then…

Italians only need 415 food by clicking feudal. That way they can click before your enemy and start making scout first.

To go castle age they only need 680 food and 170 gold to click up castle (normally before your enemy) and go for those knights, or crosbows, or even fc + castle drop and make geoneose crosbows.

Longbow and chukonus might loss to paladins they are not invencible. Yes they are really good archers and win easily vs geonese crosbows becouse chukonu has better atack and longbow better range.

Generic arbalest like viking arbalest still beat genoese crosbow, but all those 3 units I talked about are different, different proposes maybe. Genoese crosbow is only good if your enemy is going cavalier. But I have never felt that they are doing their job wrong when I am killing those letis.

[francisco2002]

@OliveCereal4714

Man, are you kidding me? Why do you asume everyone is a noob? Ofcourse I’ve tried.

I don’t think you are a noob. Sorry if you are getting offended but you don’t really give arguments. I tell you why the things are like I feel. I play with turks a lot on arena and those crosbows just die so easily with my hand cannons and bombard cannons when i go fast imp. The best reaction is to go knights but then again my monks convert them and they are gg.

[LordPatito8258]

I am giving arguments. Of course castle age units die to imperial age units, but FU Arbalesters won’t do. At maximum, BBC could be an acceptable response for archers in a very situational way (fast im in arena). Try to counter archers with turks in amy open map. And again, BBC are waaaay easier to dodge than mangonels. Any average player could do it 2 out of 3 times

[DoctBaghi]

@francisco2002

Longbow and chukonus might loss to paladins they are not invencible.

Longbows and chukos can kill paladins pretty well, GC can do it to, but they still need to outnumber them.

@DoctBaghi

The time that takes to train Genovese Crossbowmen
So, right now a GC takes 22s in castle age to be trained from a castle (650stone and 200seconds to build). All other UU archers takes from 16s to 18s to be created, other UU too takes less than a GC needs (like organ guns or war wagons).
Now let’s compare it with some normal units TT:
A xbow takes 27s to be trained, a knight 30s, both can be trained at a building that cost 175wood and takes 50seconds to be build.
So in a land map, in castle age, it’s safe to assume that by the time you build a castle your enemy has 3 stables (if not more), it means that for 3 knight created by your enemy, you have 1 GC and you are to roughtly a third of the cration of the second, after 2 minutes you have 5 and a half GC vs 12 knights, after 10 it’s 27 GC vs 60 K, this maintaining the 1:3 ratio, since for every castle you build, your enemy can easly respond with 3 stables.
So even if the GC have a strong bonus, they will always be outnumbered, yes you could also go pikes, but you would invest resources in 2 units that couter the same tipe of units (istead of 2 units that complement each other weakness).

@francisco2002

But I have never felt that they are doing their job wrong when I am killing those letis.

Never tried vs letis, but Vs knights are a struggle.

I think that these two video can prove my point here about italians on full land and the GC problem (especially the first one).