[Helping weak civs] some minor ideas for improvements

[Parthnan]

@DoctBaghi

To me their only problem is that their UU do not have a role, so finding one for them is the best thing we can do for them.

I cant beleive the devs havent fixed this massively unusable UU already. It has basically remained untweaked since african kingdoms (and look at How Viper AND hera have given this LAST SPOT in UU tierlist).

They buffed the Tarkans, Axemen, Berserks, War Wagons, Battle eles, Condos, Konniks, Turtles, Leitis, Keshiks IN HUGE WAY(S) (regardless of if the civ was strong or not) AND gave them actual competitive viability but never even showed interest in fixing EAs.

It pains me to see such a forgotten unit that is still passed as a UU, no civilization deserves this.

You know what, Elephant Monks will be better replacement

Elephant Monk
Cost 150F 100G
HP: 480/680 → 720/1020 after sanctity (problem?) , Speed 0.85/0.95 → +21% after upgrades (problem?)
Range : 10+3 (problem?)
A/PA : 2+2/4+2 ,3+3/5+4 (problem?)
Armor Classes: hell u!! (problem?)

But what the devs WILL end up giving Indians as UU is something AMAZING like this:

Elephant Villager
Cost 200F
HP: 250/300, Speed 0.7/0.8
Attack : 3
A/PA : 0+1/3+2
Armor Classes: War Elephant, Cavalry Archer, Archer, UU, Cavalry, Mameluke, Camel and many more!!

Oh and BTW, it can’t build buildings, farm, or mine. Savvy?

[JoJo9942]

stop posting this copypasta pls

[Parthnan]

Why? it is my own original content

[MatCauthon3]

@JoJo9942

stop posting this copypasta pls

Not only is it copy pasta but its full of misinformation. The leitis has been changed once. I dont know what you’re definition of many is, but the only unit up their changed more then the elephant archer is the condo.

Yeah the ea isn’t very good, but the indians civilization is in a good spot.

[MatCauthon3]

@Parthnan

Why? it is my own original content

Because its full of false information.

[Parthnan]

@MatCauthon3

Because its full of false information.

What false information???
They buffed all of the Tarkans, Axemen, Berserks, War Wagons, Battle eles, Condos, Konniks, Turtles, Leitis, Keshiks IN HUGE WAY(S)(regardless of if the civ was strong or not) AND gave them actual competitive viability but never even showed interest in fixing EAs.

[MatCauthon3]

We know you edited it. It original said many times.

[MatCauthon3]

@Parthnan

(regardless of if the civ was strong or not)

Also, the only civ on the list who was strong when their unique unit got buffed was the huns. The tarkan fills a very niche role and is not used much.

The vikings were strong on water but bad on land.
Some of the listed civs are still weak (Koreans, Italians off water)

[Sylux1000]

I can share my personal idea on Indians.

Some years ago, there was a pro tournament, where all the picks were Indian mirros. Clearly this means that they were OP.

After that, camels have been nerfed, Indians armor bonus has been nerfed, arbalest has been removed, pathing has improved archers… overall indians fell a bit behind.
Now the are the only civ (with celts actually) which cannot follow both the meta standards (bloodlines knights into Cavaliers and crossbowman into arbalest).

Considering the importance of Paladins in TG, they are still a top pick in TG

Maybe giving them back arbalest can help, even if it would create a bit of overlap with Saracens (maybe we can give Saracens Cavaliers since the them of “camels instead of knights” is for Indians). Arbalest is good in 1v1 but not that much in TG, so this seems to fit their needs.

However, despite my reasoning, I do not think that indians need balancing now. First, the most important thing is to see how EA will be changed (I proposed an option in another topic). Then we will figure out if and what Indians need…

[Parthnan]

@Sylux1000

First, the most important thing is to see how EA will be changed

Simple! Replace with the more useful Elephant Skirmishers or Elephant Villagers

[Sylux1000]

I do not think we can easily find a role for EA and Persians WE without changing their mechanics.

One of the best UUs in the game (the best one imo) is the plumed archer. Fast and cheap. The opposite of EA.

So regardless the bonus you give EA (vs cavalry, archers, siege or whatever), there exists a huge risk that still the other Indian options cover that role better.

[Parthnan]

@Sylux1000

So regardless the bonus you give EA (vs cavalry, archers, siege or whatever), there exists a huge risk that still the other Indian options cover that role better.

OK give them Ram Elephants, Elephant Camels, Elephant Trade Carts, Elephant Ships, Elephant Kings, Elephant Petards, Elephant Spearman or Flaming Elephants

Any of these options are still better then current Elephant Archers.

Elephant Kings might be a GREAT SITUATIONAL UNIT!! i mean who wouldnt want multiple 400HP Kings in REGICIDE!!!
Much more common than the situations where EA are “useful”(at wasting gold).

[Sylux1000]

@Parthnan

Elephant Camels

11
Is this a camel over an elephant or the opposite?

[Sylux1000]

I was thinking of a way to make EA and WE less situational, but not go to units. For a slow and powerful unit training from a castle is difficult to be a go to strategy.

Maybe, just a mechanics to see few of them in every game, instead of a lot of them in some games…

[Parthnan]

@Sylux1000

Is this a camel over an elephant or the opposite?

Since the Indians since antiquity were obviously so great at training Camels to be useful compared to Elephants, ofcourse it is an Elephant on top of a Camel

And Elephant Trade Carts will be affected by Caravan so they WILL be as fast as real elephants
You know what, lets give them Elephant Trade Carts

Elephant Trade Cart / Elite Elephant Trade Cart
Cost 200F 100G
HP: 500/690, Speed 0.9/0.95 => 1.8/1.9 after caravan (Problem?)
A/PA : 2+2/4+2 , 2+3/4+4
Armor Classes: ■■■■ u,■■■

GREAT SITUATIONAL UNIT ISNT IT
Again, Much more common than the “situations” where EA are “useful”.

[Parthnan]

Or you know, just give them Elephant Villagers, the Indians will be juust fine as a civ anyway, right?
They have kamels man
And that’s what matters, right?

[DoctBaghi]

[Helping weak civs: wrap-up]

Well, +1 attack is better than nothing, however, to see of the AE work as a unit, we should compare it to the korean’s WW, since it’s probably the most similar units. Now, WW beat the EA in damage output, range, bonus damage vs buildings, speed and cost less. EA have more HP (almost half more), less frame delay and more PA (the base armor is lower, but Indians get PT) while costing more, so they are tankier and can absorb more arrow-fire, but it also get less bonus damage vs halbs and s…

[Sylux1000]

I was thinking to a different mechanics for EA and WE… Instead of making them go to units, try to ensure that they will join each game in low numbers

[DoctBaghi]

Yes but how? I mean, you didn’t explain your meccanic, and while you still get them late, WE often are trained in low numbers to counter archers and destroy a few buildings, while at the same time, you have the opportunity to spam them in the late game and just obliterate your enemy.

[Sylux1000]

I posted this in another topic, but we can discuss here:

The problem why you do not see them is that they are slow and expensive. But they are powerful, and it is needed for balance that I cannot attack my enemies with 40+ EAs.

What about lowering a lot the cost of these UU while increasing a lot their TT?

In practice I think Indians will always add EA if they are very cheap, but you will see just few of them because they are too slow to be trained. Similar Persians.

So you will see always few WE/EA, maybe 3-4 at most in the same battle, but you see them in several games.

Hystorically, I guess that 50% army of elephants was also very rare… so it makes sense to me… just a different mechanics…

You can even limit the number of WE/EA you can have in the same time as in AoM.

This also differentiates roles of battle and war elephants.

Ideas on possible combination between cost and TT?