Hera vs 1000 Elo player with all civ bonuses

I saw his interesting question on reddit. The opinions over there seem divided and I wonder how everyone here feels about it:

" Could a 1000 elo player beat tryhard Hera if he (the 1k players) had all civ bonuses together ? "

https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe2/comments/1dc7p0a/would_a_9001000_elo_player_with_all_civ_bonuses/

I don’t know whether it is full tech tree or one need to pick the civ for the tech tree and UTs, it is not specified. I assume it is a 1v1 Arabia on standard 2 players size.

For me it is a clear “YES”, but I may be too naive.

What I see is:

  • No houses
  • Starts with -50f -100w +50g +100s + ~100g from free techs (spanish)
  • All eco techs are free and available earlier; wood/gold/stone techs yield +40%
  • start with +4 vils + 1 Mule cart (and wheelbarrow)
  • villagers cist -4/-6/-9/-11f and faster
  • Boars have 500f, gathered at +38% speed
  • Sheeps have 15f, gathered at +25% speed
  • Wood gathered at +15%
  • Age up requires no building, cost -75f, -120f/80g, -480f/-384g, and is fast
  • In 4 minutes / 10 villagers, gather 2 sheeps & 1 boar to ahe up
  • Upon age up, get 100f + 100g + 200w + ~260g from free techs, +2 villagers, +3 villagers from Persians/Malays +1 villagers from instant loom, and free hand cart
  • Long Swords are FU with 3/4 armor, 1.035 speed, +33% attack speed, 72 hp, cost 21f, 11g
  • pikes cost 12f, have 1.25 speed, and upgrade to halbs with half cost
  • skirms cost 15f, 8w, have +20% hp, +10% speed, + 25% attack speed
  • Stables/Ranges cost -90w, Market/Blacksmith cost -110w
  • with Saracens market prices, selling stone and buying food buys the way up to castle
  • Archer attacks / cav armor cost no gold, -50% food, yield +20g (other are free)
  • Upon castle age, get 100f + 100g + 200w + ~220g from free techs, +2 villagers, + 3 to 5 villagers from Persians/Malays.
  • Get legionary with free blacksmith upgrades (double armor) and gambeson and cheap squires
  • knights cost 39food and 49 gold has +10% speed (before cheap husbandry), +20% hp, cheap cavalier & bloodlines, resist bonus damage (-33%) and conversion, +1/+0 armor
  • Battle Ele costs 40f, 28g, +20% speed (before cheap husbandry) up to 1.2, double resist conversion and bonus damage (-48%), +20% hp, +1/+1 armor
  • Light cav cost 40f
  • Scorpions cost 39w 4g, has +1 range, hit +25% faster, min range is 1, benefits 33% cheaper ballistics.
  • Farming require no drop off, gathered 20% faster, cost -40%, and give 10% if build next to a forwark
  • Every military unit is produced 31% faster

Can the best player in the world beat an average players with all of these bonuses (plus all the not mentioned ones) ?

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I think that most would choose Inca houses over no houses. In addition, with Inca houses you get the Khmer bonus.

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I expect that we cannot cherry pick which bonus we take.

And that a 1000 Elo player should not quick wall, and preemptively rather build palliades costing -50% and build faster.

But fine then. Does it make a difference between winning amd losing ?

I would try push him early with their favorite unit. Scout-line.
You can attack very fast and even with bloodlines, +1 PA (Turks), more HP (Mongols and Franks), free +1 attack (Magyars), Speed (Cumans), very cheaper (Berbers and Magyars).

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The economy bonuses are absurd, so it comes down to the rudimentary skill and practice of the individual player. Just having the Vietnamese eco bonuses with Burgundians and Armenians would be over the top, but the Celts, Teutons, Turks, Bohemians, Mayans, Chinese, Georgians and so forth, that is an economy that is already on fire (Bonuses from the Franks, Bohemians, Vikings and Burmese are not Age specific, they are availability specific). Heck, you can have a Britons/Spanish/Cuman/Sicilian second TC in the Feudal Age training Hindustani Villagers at a Persian pace after a Malay age up at Italian prices.

Note: The Vietnamese bonus of knowing where their TC is is an immense eco bonus.

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The combo archers+Camel scout+rams in feudal of Cumans could be very solid…

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Magyar/Malay/Goth/Roman/Bulgarian/Armenian/Portuguese/Inca/Aztec/Burmese/Celt/Japanese/Viking Feudal Long Sword masses would give anyone nightmares. Typically, the unit is too slow to get sufficient value, but it will be faster than normal and properly supported.

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Scouts are a solid option, but are weak to spears, so they need more micro, which may be svary against someone like Hera (assuming your scouts arent in his base while he is still in dark age as non-Armenians). Bit the price tag and the eco behind it should push it to victory.

Scouts stats:

  • cost 56f in Feudal, 40f in castle, 32f in imperial
  • +1 PA
  • +20% hp starting Feudal
  • Free light cav and +30% hp starting Castle age (Mongols bonus only apply to light cav and hussars)
  • 50% cheaper bloodlines and husbandry
  • free attack upgrade and cheap armor upgrades
  • -33% bonus damage resistance
  • +5/10/15% speed in Feudal/Castle/imperial

Agreed, Feudal longswords are insane with super eco, very cheap (21f 11g in feudal), faster than archers, 72hp and only take 3 damage from forging scouts, 2 from TCs, and 1 damage from everything else (including fletching archers).

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I think is very feasible reach feudal age with a huge advantage in times and resources.
Think in inca houses bonus+Slavs Military buildings pop space+Chinese TC pop space+ Dravidians wood bonus + Cumans military building discount + farming bonus altogheter (khmer+Aztecs+Teuton).
I think you could click feudal with very few vils and still sustain 2 stables production.

Another approach is make a very fast FC into knights or smush.

It should be easy win for 1000 elo player. Just to let you know how insane the staring Dark Age advantage for the player.

Start with +4 villagers (Chinese + Mayans) and 1 Mule Cart.
Starting resources 100 food (200 standard + 100 Lithuanians + 50 Persians - 200 Chinese - 50 Mayans), 100 wood (+50 Persians - 50 Chinese - 100 Huns), 150 gold (+50 Aztecs), 300 stone (+100 Sicilians).
No need to build house. And there is a mule cart. Basically just build the Folwark (Poles) from starting wood. No need to build to age advancing either (Khmer). Need wood only for barracks.
Now all Feudal eco techs are free thanks to Burgundians, Vikings, Burmese, Franks and Bohemians. On top of that 2x food on farm (Sicilians) and wood + mining techs are 40% more effective (Armenians).
Lumberjack are 15% (Celts) x 5% (Romans) x 28% (Burmese + Burgundians + Armenians) = 55% faster. Almost like having Imperial Age upgrades in Dark Age.
All food incomes are 20% faster or higher. Shepherd is 30%+ and Hunters are 47% faster. Not to mention animals just never runs out thanks to Mayans, Tatars and Goths.

Now military, just hit Feudal and make Longswordsman (Armenians) at 29 food (Goths, Slavs, Incas) 12 gold (Goths, Portuguese) that trains 33% faster (Goths, Aztecs), moves 15% faster (Celts), +1 attack (Burmese), fires 33% faster (Japanese), +1 PA (Malians), +20% HP, blacksmith attack and armors are researched, and armor gives 2x value.
Final stat of this unit is -

72 HP
11 attack
1.50 ROF
3/4 armor
1.04 speed

Worth to mention Feudal age is 75% faster (Persians, Malay). And all the castle age eco techs are instantly researched as soon as you reach Feudal. And 2 free villagers, +100 food, +200 wood, +100 gold.

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This is correct.

It wouldnt be hard t put your 7 starting villagers on the lama, bring the next sheep under TC, and lure a boar ASAP. After these 3 animals you can click up at 4:00 and arrive around 5:20. Even if he messes up, the player should be in Feudal age before 6:00. At that time, Hera has 18 villagers no loom, assuming he hasnt clicked up already and is not Chinese/Mayans/Persians.

Just by being in Feudal, you get over 600 resources + the 300 gold 300 stone in the bank, and can market to balance out. 200 free wood is enough for 2 stables + market, and you still got food from 5 or 6 sheeps (over 900 food). And have 10 villagers leads with all eco upgrades up to castle age.

Yes, you could also idle TC, or rush cheap forwark to garniaon sheeps and go up earlier. Idling may good to be faster as you already have 28 villagers anyways and only need 4 farmers per stable. You can even produce 0 villagers, and click up after 2 sheep and still be on feudal age with 9 villagers at 3:20. 2 Stables + market + sell 300s + buy wood and food (from 1100g) and spam scouts.

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THat sounds brutal…
Seeing those ideas, I would prefer a match where Hera has all this bonuses vs 7 opponents at once. No doubt that should be more interesting seeing a pro experimenting with it than a average ELO player…

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I understand your points but why are all eco techs free?

Vikings + Franks + Burmese + Bohemians bonus

Oh eco tech. I didn’t think of that i thought it was all techs free

Could there be a mod for this? I really wish this happens.

And I didn’t even notice how OP just Feudal military is.

You need only 4 farmers + 2 gold miners per Barracks LS production in Feudal. So you can instantly go 18 pop Feudal and double barracks continuous production. Or just scout that needs only 5 farmers per stable. With free attack researched, +1 PA, +20% HP, +10% speed.

Free Pikeman (Armenians + Ethiopians) at 17 food (Byzantines, Goths, Incas) and 10 wood (Koreans, Byzantines), trains 33% faster, 20% extra HP, +1 attack, 33% faster firing, +25% more bonus damage, +1 PA, +26.5% faster speed, all attack and armor researched. Final stat -

66 HP
6 attack
+27.5 against cavalry
2.25 rof
2/3 armor
1.265 speed

BTW, I miscalculated starting resource as Spanish with all those free tech will give you a lot of gold.

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Against 1000 Elo players, I think it would be as one sided if not more, because Hera would be better at adapting the eco, multi tasking and defending the eco. By the time the 7 players are in Feudal age (9 to 10 minutes?), they would all have 5 LS in their bases killing the TCs.

Againat 2000 Elo players, it may get interesting, as they can coordinate a scout rush with the 7 starting scouts.

Now I notice that my calculations were all wrong. I thought about discounts and gatherimg rates as additive, whereas they are multiplicative (they are additive in aoe3, so you can end up with unit instantly trained) as you are doing.

So a pike costs:

  • Food: Byzantines 25%, Goth 25%, Incas 15%
  • Wood: Byzantines 25%, Goth 25%, Koreans 50%

Then they cost 17 food and 7 wood, and not 12 food 0 wood as I wrote.

So all my discounts (and the elephant bonus damage reduction) are bigger than reality, and my gathering rates are smaller than reality.

AT least I also got the wood wrong.

What about the UU? If you pick this ubrr civ with Sicilians you could make a Donjon rush with an late castle age stats sarjeant in a couple of minutes.