Demeter is inherently weak right now, but Hestia’s tech which gives +10 population for every 2 farms built around a Towcenter is the most powerful and toxic tech in the game (especially in long games), and it’s just a heroic-age tech, not even a mythic-age one.
This is just a minor nitpick because I like its concept and I can easily see this thing being fixed and nerfed in the long run.
For example, it could grant +1 population instead of +5 per farm, forcing players to spend five times the resources to reach the population cap with this tech. That would result in more farms being built around a Town Center, which is also much more thematic and balanced.
I agree, Demeter is quite binary right now, you survive the earlier part and some techs juts outright carry you the rest of the way. + 30 pop on a single tech is very strong.
Making it more of an investment to get the pop sounds nice imo.
Isis with +5 pop per TC and Citadel with +10 pop from the god power are the two main comparisons. 10-15 pop from 1 minor god can be strong to begin with but 30 in a normal long game is way too much even if you invest in extra farms.
Especially bad if Demeter gets to 4 tc and has 300 pop vs 210 in a long game, there’s just no coming back from that if you can get to popcap.
Suggestion: Reduce bonus to 4-5 extra population maximum per TC
I would rather keep the population bonus, but your TCs will cost +100w/g and lose 25% hp. Since this is an age3 tech, it should have obvious downsides.
The issue with farms is that while it looks like you could cancel the upgrade by killing farms, the enemy can basically have backup farms…
problem is this tech is really conditional you have to reach full pop to use it, its useless rest of the game. demeter has alot weaker army than rest of greeks, she has almost no techs for army so she could get extra pop without problems
In low elo games yeah, in higher elo its hard to reach full pop with your army that early cause of constant pressure and fighting. This tech def could use a nerf to let’s say 20 bonus pop for 3 tc with farms placed. But demeter needs good buffs in other areas. No techs for army is a problem also.
This tech is never worth researching in heroic in any game in relevant elo
But its really strong in mythic as game progresses and you have chance to go full pop with army
The games where one or both players end up getting 175/175 pop in late heroic (or in early heroic aswell) are not that rare at any level, to be honest.
In classical age is rare to fill up the entire pop cap, but in heroic age it’s another story.
The only thing that could keep this tech in check is the fact that games in Retold tend to be already over in classical age or early heroic, but as game goes on this tech becomes way too good.
Exactly, its also just extra pop. If you are turtling 1 tc or 2 tc is functions similar to a citadel, you simply have an extra cushion to play around for minimal investment.
Later on when you just get 3 tc it just makes the gap much wider. Fortunately her late game strengh how changed with having Hera now so at least is less oppresive than full set heph but its quite good for a single tech either way for how little you need to invest on it.
I wish this tech was given to her directly instead of Hestia for this reason. I really dislike going the Aphrodite route for any god in general as I find her lacking, and the Nemean Lion isn’t a great myth unit either. If at least Demeter had the pop tech herself, it would compensate for her lack of military upgrades no matter what minor god route you opt for.
Either this or swapping Persephone and Hestia farm techs, the former is too weak in mythic age and the latter too strong in heroic.
An innate bonus of +1 pop for Demeter for every farm built (capped at ~15/20 pop) would be a much better bonus than the rather useless Village Center bonus, for example.
I have a better idea for a useful bonus that can’t really be exploited:
Farmers don’t cost population.
This way you don’t get the bonus for empty farms and it’s only 1 per farm. This would also not change the villager build limit so it would be hard capped at 100 but in a real game you would have some on the other 3 resources so maybe 30 in practice.
Well hetairoi were nerfed due to how good the became with that techs synergy. So this has been accounted, it working for podromos has no bearing on how good the tech is or isnt tbh.
Except Hestia has 2, Fated arrow is the best archer tech in the game and its not close. 50% dps increase is very good.
Are we saying that having more pop has a donwside? Like yea….. you have to have resources to make units, the fact i can have 30 pop more of them because i made some farms is a bit too much for some people, incluiding me. Its double isis bonus and equal in pop advantage as having a citadel on each tc.
I see this pov and fair. For the people that have very high bars to deem anything strong sure. go at it. For others, designs can be problematic even if a god isnt winning 100% of the time.
Demeter on release was held by ducktape. The stuff that worked was insanely good (as in give it to any working god and it sky rockets) and the things that didnt work were bugged, poorly designed or some other interaction.
She needs help, her identify is lacking imo. But that doesnt mean we should turn our eyes off the things that are too strong as well.
She was a very vulnerable gameplan that if she survives she carries forward, but thats a big if. As her kits gets fix (deservedly so) it will highlight the other parts that were a bit over but you didnt get there most of the time).
Btw she has her overpowered dynamics in team games, funny enough due to the trees of all things.
IMO this is kinda the same thing if not stronger. having 30 vills on food is not a tall ask and makes her pop gain not need to have actual tcs. She can be 1 tc and have 30+ pop still.
i dont know if laugh because is irrespectful, but that is very risky, address multiple things in one deity breaks the game. And in my experience age of empires takes months (nearly a year sometimes) to nerf things.