How does China beat Lancer+Rod

This is not a new question I had this question a few months ago but forgot to post it. I don’t play aoe3 anymore now but still want to ask.

Btw I am not noob I’m medium level at 1500 elo 1v1. However when I play China I just cant beat spain in late game, in team game or FFA when I had more resources stockpiled and opponent is lower rating (about 1200). He just spam lancer + Rodelero and I have nothing against it.

Normally to deal with lancer rod, you need skirm dragoon. Skirm shoot at rod and dragoon shoot at lancer. Rod is pretty fast so they are quite good vs dragoon but with careful micro skirm goon is good vs lancer rod.

But since China doesn’t have ability to train unit alone, the only thing China has to counter lancer is keshik. Iron flail and meteor don’t beat lancers when lancer has full upgrades, not to mention rods as well.

So to train keshik we need Ming army or Mongol army, Mongol army obviously die to lancer rod, Ming army can hold against rod but the pikes are too fragile as meat shield since rod can beat them, lancer can beat them too.

The default way is Ming army + Territory army. However lancer is not a usual cav they actually beat both Qiang Pike and Changdao, and obviously beat Arquebusier too. So 3 out of 4 units I make are beaten by the lancers, and only 1 out if 4 counters it (keshik). Then against rod again only 1 out of 4 counters it (Arquebusier), 1 trade evenly at best (changdao), 2 are countered by it. Especially keshik die to them too fast compared to dragoons do. Since keshik has low hp and 1.5 ROF with low dmg, need insane crazy micro against the rod while spain play can just spam melee units.

Overall only 2 out of 4 units I make counters lancer rod, the other 2 (pike and changdao) are wasted and even gets countered. So the army proportion is just so bad. I dont have enough counter units since they are bundled with units being countered. If there is a keshik + chu ko nu/arq army then problem is solved.

Any pros having tips?

P.S I also realised Inca has problem dealing with lancer rod too. But not to such an extent, mass bolas is still pretty good vs both.

I would go with Keshiks, Chu-ko-nu and swordsman, as long as you can keep the keshiks in front of the lancers, the swordsman blocking the Rodeleros and the Chu-ko-nu firing, you should trade well.

Whatever u do, DON’T USE FLAMETHROWERS, they have the infantry tag, so they are extra vulnerable against any lucky lancer and rods close in fast at them.

I’d rely mostly on a shipment of changdao and ship manchu, try and end it early in fortress.

Have you not seen their hp?! 21
Not a great plan…

Yeah i know but im talking about late game, like in FFA only us 2 players left, situations like that

You’re at a disadvantage that’s for sure. Maybe get as many musk as you can from the brit consulate.

True that’s a very difficult match up. Spanish units gets so many upgrades and cards compared to chinese ones

But essentially it is China’s bundled army production is flawed. It is hard to mass the counter unit I need. Im forced to spend a lot of res on useless units

Yeah that’s the negative of china and exactly why I don’t play them, you do get lot’s of units for cheap though and can get a huge mass early on in 1v1 sup at least.

This will keep you alive but only for a little bit longer, since the ratio of regular resources to export is teeerrible, so it is not sustainable through time. Except if all Asian civs get the card that India gets as well that provides a trickle and discount for consulate units.

Unfortunately I cannot suggest using mercenaries either in the late game, because Asian civs don’t have access to imperial mercs upgrade. What you do have tho are Outlaws, so pray that you have the Atonement card and got lucky with some of the good Outlaws.

I have never had a problem using cav skirm(plus a bit of musks ) against lancer rod

The only thing I would note is that it is a fight you need to micro and control the tempo of so often you are on the defensive against it so your goal more is to trade so efficiently that your opponent runs out of resouces or you get to a death ball the just rolls to the opponents base and takes down their production

the cav is not there to fight, they are mostly there to shield ur skirms and snare ur opponent. Dont expect the fight to be just spamming units into a death zone. Kiting back and counter snaring is key

another option is to send 2 flying crows (with upgrades) to just deal splash into the enemy mass. it deals less damage towards the lancers but that doesnt matter, it softens their overall mass to which you can pick off

the castle armies are also an option, the mongol + standard army combo is normal late gate but again requries good micro, constant back kiting and using the steppe rider as meatshields

the black flag army is also an option combined with territorial army or territorial army + forbidden or imperial army

in these cases ur meatshields are the changdaos (though they do decent damage so dont completely waste them) and the iron flail

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In front of the lancers, the lancers, not the rods, they have low health but they’ll trade well against lancers if you don’t let them cross.
Better the Keshiks than the infantry.