OK tell me whats better, don’t try to load the obligation to proof on me. You made the comparison now it’s your term to deliver.
Cavalier is useless? You are probably the only one with that opinion.
Cavalier with 60 F 50 F lacking the last armor upgrade but with 33 % trample damage is extremely powerful in melee combats. One of the best overall units. Maybe not as strong against archery, but that’s why I proposed to give winged hussar +20 hp.
Sorry but I think you are trying to diminish these bonusses. They are insanely strong. Especially in conjection with the folwark bonus.
Knigths with 60 F 30 G are just op, they even COUNTER camels. That alone is OP.
And this even with neglecting the folwark bonus, one of the best eco bonusses in the game.
I just don’t think that it’s a good design to make a civ completely OP in castle but trash in very lategame. It’s too one-dimensional actually.
Just be a bit creative, this is too simple as a design concept.
A mix of Monks and Pikes will counter the elephants. You can then go and launch counter attack by adding siege + whatever unit makes sense for your civ.
All of these changes just don’t make sense. If I give the Winged Hussar +20 HP, then I will just make that instead of the Cavalier, since it requires only one resource, is overall cheaper (80 res vs 110 res), and barely weaker than said Cavalier. The faster movement speed of the Hussar would be especially the decisive factor.
I doubt that most civs with camel will have problems, we’ve had this comparison in another thread. Anyhow, the only civ that I think might struggle is Saracens, and that’s not because of their Camels, it’s just because Saracens don’t have any useful eco bonus to get to them. (realistically though, as Saracens against Poles, I’d just go YOLO with a 21 pop triple archery range rush because of the weak mid-game)
Read my first response to you again. The Folwark bonus is quite awkward, and despite its usefulness, it has very clear drawbacks.
I think Bohemians were meant as the Arena civ, not Poles. Poles look like they’re meant to be an aggressive early rush civ.
You didn’t speak about counters. Every unit has it’s counters. You were talking about a unit which is strictly better in combat. And there is no common unit that is better than malay eles. It’s that simple.
The counter wheel you can spin forever, but some units are just overall the best combat units. And currently of all the non-uniques that are malay eles.
Please stay inside your own arena, don’t try to shift the discussion to something other than you initially talked about. Stay consistent.
+33 % trample or however it’s now called damage make a huge difference in larger scaled melee fights. I think it’s justified to have cavaliers with trample damage there. It’s just experience you gain in the game how big the impact of trample damage is actually in this kind of fights.
Don’t forget, cavaliers have 12 attack and rof of 1.8. Winged Hussars have 9 atk and rof of 1.9.
It’s a big difference.
Some drawbacks for sure, but the bonus as it is, is one of the best eco bonusses in the game. Only beaten by the cuman 2nd tc…
And which of them do you think is more viable?
How is this related to anything I said in this topic?
And still:
I’m waiting for your proof.
Don’t think you get away with just adding new weird tangents to the theme. You begun with this, you need to deliver.
It is consistent, you just don’t like the result. Fact is that another civ than Poles has a better discount bonus on a stable unit, and even that does not really tend to dominate games/meta. Essentially, the point was that you’re overrating how much value the Polish UT really gives you, making this whole thread just largely pointless.
For a 50 gold premium… yeah I’d rather just tech into the archer line and add the hussar as meat-shield at that point.
I already did, but you don’t like the conclusion, because it doesn’t fit your narrative in wanting to redesign an early rush civ into a post-imp civ.
I’m not sure how these randomly selected numbers help in this discussion. You can start making camels right away once you’re in castle. If you want to use the Poles discount, you need to build a castle, and then get the UT, and then start making the knights. That’s quite a lot of delay. It’s already a risk in itself if you just try to wait and do nothing until you get the discount. So you either start making at least some knights before the discount, in which case the numbers will work out OK, or you take a massive risk to delay making your army.
eh… it basically helps you pop out a few extra units when you finish all the meat around your tc. I’d hardly put this on par with the S tier eco bonuses, but it is certainly a nice bonus, sure.
No it isn’t. Every unit has it’s counter. Either we accept that or we just can’t compare units to each other.
So comparing a unit that is supposed to be a counter unit to another is just not allowed in “power comparison”. Only units that are in direct competition or are very similar in usage are allowed.
As eles are supposed to be a heavy cav counter they aren’t allowed as a power comparison against them. If we begun this way we just would run in circles:
Halb + Monks counter Eles
Arbs counter Halb + Monks
Siege counters Halbs
Cav counters onagers
Eles counter Cav
…
We can’t make any conclusion based on that.
The only allowed comparison is against other cav lines in this context. Doesn’t meen in a standoff, just how they perform in certain common combat situations you would encounter in a realistic scenario.
False claim again, just deliver any common unit that can outperform malay eles in general common battle scenarios. I’m waiting for your proof.
You missed the point twice in a row now. The question isnt about how to counter Elephants, it’s about the fact that a similar but better bonus already existed in game, and even that does not dominate games by itself.
It seems you ran out of things to say. Sorry but your picture also has no context or info on how it is derived so there is no point to go down this avenue with you.
It isn’t similar. Eles are just trash in open maps. Even in closed maps they are fairly easy to counter unless you can spam them like crazy.
YOu can’t compare a power unit being discounted by the same margin as a extremely situational unit. That just doesn’t work.
And especially not in a direct standoff. Nobody with basic understanding of the game would engage malay eles with same res spent with it’s cavaliers. It’s just nonsense. That’s how the game works, you have the mobility, you chose what battles to take. If they aren’t in your favor you don’t take them. You try to get your benefit somewhere else.
As battle eles are terrible raid units but cavaliers are excellent in that regard you just decide to use your cavaliers to raid. And you win. That’s how you play AOE2.
How could posting real analytic results be “running out of things to say” ? ^^
Are you trying to project your own fallacy on me? ^^
Are just claims allowed but not reason?
WTF? No, that UT is nuts. It makes polish knights almost uncounterable.
Monks? Against 30 g units? seriously?
Camels get countered.
Even Pikes have a hard time, but polish player can chose IF he wants to engage them.
(Edit: Even pikes can’t counter them anymore, just checked with the combat simulator.)
X-Bows? against 30G 60 F Knights? Good luck!
This tech is basically uncounterable once researched.
I have yet to see that in practice. Maybe it is one of those things that is OP at low elo but not a factor otherwise, kind of like Goths maybe. No idea. I don’t experience these problems that you describe when facing Poles.
Shows you don’t have much esperience.
Goths flood is a threat at all elo. It’s that simple, only a few civs really have any tool to counter it, like slavs. But most just can’t counter it.
This is actually best example for a player who doesn’t has much experience in the game. Claiming that goths aren’t a threat at high elo is just false. Higher elos just learn how to avoid being in that situation and know how exploit the weaknesses of that civ, But it’s not an easy task against a goth main player, I can tell you.
(OK maybe I have sometimes probs with it cause I play koreans main, a civ which is heavily countered by goths, but it is applyable to many civs. Goths aren’t an easy civ to deal with. This statement is just ignorant. It’s very complicated to deal with goths actually, cause a lot of counter strats just don’t work against them.)
Maybe becaus People just don’t know the buildorders for poles yet?
Sure, the Goth civ can be a serious threat at any elo. But it is a lot harder for the Goth player to actually get to that stage in higher elos. Unlike low elo games, your opponent wont just sit back and do (a possibly bad) boom, but will actively pressure you, and try to prevent you from getting there. As a result of a faster and more active pace of the game on higher elos, it’s much more difficult for the Goths to get to that strong late-castle/early-imp power spike.
You can see this in effect yourself:
vs
At higher elos the Goth winrate tanks significantly vs the all elo win-rate. From 51% to 46%. Quite a massive drop. So you understand, the Goths have a good potential at any elo, but a weak early-game matters more and more as you go up in elo.
So it’s not to say that you cant pull off the goth spam in higher elos, but it’s significantly harder, and is far from the go-to civ for try-harding.
So not quite sure what to make of your statement, it seems you dont have much experience with early aggression (probably just not yet at the elo range where people know how to do effectively damage with early aggro)
Certainly might be a factor, but again, the whole premise of the UT is hindered by the fact that you need a castle and then research, and then make the units. No player will just sit back with a cup of tea and wait for you to get all this, much like how players (excluding LEL) dont wait for Goths to sit back and get to their very strong infantry spam option.
Goths don’t have a weak early game. Goths mains make Games extremely messi from the beginning in high elo.
Your only chance is to stay calm and get serious counter-raids in, as goths lack good raiding units in the midgame.
You can make a messy early game with most civs if you really want. Goths just more or less often do this because of the lack of a strong early game. (and of course laming is sometimes just good fun, and goths do have some strengths in some early lames)
Idk if that alone is necessarily a strong early game. If you manage to actually lame some boars, then I guess yes, that’s very strong, but if you don’t manage to lame, then you’re in big trouble
It’s way more complicated than that. I’m no goths main player, but I know every time I face one, they just make the early game extremely annoying to me. They can lame, trush, sneak, vill fight… whatever.
It’s really not an easy task.
And if you make loom early they are ahead a vill already, so you can chose if you want stick or whip.
Ofc I’m exaggerating, but Just making a point. These kind of high discounts can be extremely annoying to deal with. As you can’t counter them the “usual” way. You need to catch them overextending or by just getting better trades (which includes counter-raids).
But how do you counter-raid knights? They are basically the best raiding units in the game once in the eco.
That’s pretty much their only shot at not dying. For the non-goth player it’s just all about damage control, keeping it cool, not panicing and not over reacting (ofc easier said than done…)
The answer is depends on the civ and match-up. It’s usually the left-over spears from Feudal, plus dropping Monastery. Additional barracks and pikemen if I remember the player to be a more all-in type of player. If I have other civ advantages, then ofc I’ll consider those. If I’m Byzantines or Berbers, I’ll consider Camels for sure.
I already put all the counters into aoe-combatsim.com .
It seems no “counter” works against 60 F 30 G knights anymor. And even monks… I don’t see it against a 30 g unit. It’s just not worth it in my eyes.
Ofc Monk micro needs apm as hell and that’s most likely my worst “skill” of the game. But
I just don’t see it working even at the highest level against 60 f 30 g knights. It’s just too much of investment for too less gain. Plus the knights mobility makes it awkward with that kind of discount.
Ok in imp halbs seem to work again, but getting the tech advantage just for a counter to work seems a bit overkill for me…
I think Poles will go heavy aggro well before the UT kicks in. They have a good tower rush potential. I’d personally play Poles a tower rush civ. So if you are worried about this UT kicking in, and your opponent hasn’t trushed you, you can just all in forward them as soon as you hit castle.
We have come round at last.