How is the Leitis STILL allowed to be so incredibly OP that it is completely BROKEN?

Leitis and Gentlemen.
Let us discuss on how to fix this Leitist OP Unique Unit unit which just like the SL, has no niche and can be either stronger or weaker than the Knight-Line.

In my opinion the Leitis as a unit is overpowered. It is cheaper (70 food, 50 gold) than the knight line (60 food, 75 gold) while being faster and alot stronger


Performed as good as Paladin for cheaper WITH 0 RELICS in the tests

Also, have a look at none other than the Second Best player in this whole world, Hera’s leitist video on usage of these hilariously OP Leitis, and the comments below if yo’re not convinced of this unit’s capacity to break all of AoE2:DE by itself.

I wish Good Luck to those who want to see Leitis and/or SL coexisting with Kinght-line as they are, as they will sorely need this luck, if previous observations are anything to go by.

As for me,I am just surprised that these cavalry units exist in a game where people oppose a +1 attack buff to Castle Age Camels just to bring them to an attack on par with Trash Light Cavs,
and also oppose the RIGHTFUL removal of the nonsensical Archer Armor class from already unseen 85G Mamelukes

This topic is about finding a balancing solution to the vastly powerful Leitis

Unit Balance first, Civ Balance later, after we get enough data/experience, and accordingly

A single unit takes much less data and experience to be balanced. It is much more objective and decipherable.

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There exist an hidden armor called anti letis armor, so soon there will be units that counters it.

Summary

There is no such armor

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So in this video we see Leitis killing feudal skirms, low numbers of pikemen and then Leitis vs Leitis fights.

Yeah I don’t see how you could possibly conclude that the unit is OP here.

Also I wouldn’t exactly take games where people go basically afk boom for 20 minutes as best representative of balance of a civ. By that logic even organ guns could look good.

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That’s not what this means at all. The anti Leitis armor is the armor class that lets Leitis bypass melee armor, it doesn’t mean at all that there will be units with bonus against Leitis.

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Hera is at best no 3. Yo and viper surely no. 1 and no. 2. Anyway, a single pro player samples isn’t proof of anything. By this logic a single game of viper messing around with organ guns with success would proof they are op?

I agree actually that leitis are to good and camels buff is necessary

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It leaves future possibilities of tweaking existing units if it is needed

They are very powerful units, what makes them so strong is probably the reduced gold cost. I like them as they are, compared to knights the are weaker vs archers and require a castle. Much better than knights in melee fights though.

Sad that as soon as there is something above average people ask for a nerf. I do not think a nerf is mandatory, but if any it should affect the gold cost. Letis where pretty underwhelming when their gold cost was higher.

Question. What does the boyard do better than Letis? Both are UUs in competition with the knight line. Both are supposed to be stronger vs melee and weaker vs archers than Paladins. Clearly Letis is a hard counter for boyard, but I am thinking in general fights… maybe just vs infantry spam? Letis seems always superior especially if you factor the gold cost.

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OMG so leitis are actually broken if you play them vs leitis? Man sorry but this time the clickbait was not so well thought by Hera.

Would have been smarter to actually post a VOD of the Noisick (lith) vs Hera (vik) game, where hera got owned by full leitis. But even if you take a look at such a game there need to happen so many things: hera wasted all imp army, didnt start trebing down, didnt make use of the earlier imp advantage, only noticed mid imperial, that he is facing lith and relics are super important, also let his enemy fully boom and Hera himself went for wrong units (berzerk) at the begining. There needs to happen a lot until you come into that window where leitis shine, always keep in mind you have no ecobonus after darkage + need to get up + keep alive 3-4 castles. That alone balances out leitis.

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Yo isn’t #1. He needs more than one tournament win (where Viper was totally screwed over by the organizers) to be really considered #1.

Aside from this; Hera’s opinion seems a little clouded in the context of this video. I’m not sure Leitis is broken. They’re still fairly hard to mass compared to Knights, and have effective counters. Relic bonus might be too strong for them if anything, but it’s situational. Don’t allow the relics to get to the Lithuanians. They’re also weaker vs Archers. Especially compared to Paladin; they’re a lot weaker.

So viper using Elephant Archers to good effect against Upgraded Cavs with 6 pierce armor, Malian Pikes with 7 Pierce Armor, 2H swords with 8 pierce armor, and Arbs isn’t a good enough test for Viper to say that the Elephant Archer is now a decent unit.

but Hera using the Leitis in a Lithuanians matchup against trash and other Leitis is enough to say that the Leitis is too good?

i mean, the leitis is definitely strong, but it is also the only thing keeping Lithuanians out of the gutter as well. they only get 3 bonuses as a civilization, 1 is a minimal eco boost of 150 food at the start of the match, 1 is extra speed on on their trash, not bad, but nothing amazing either, and the last is the relic bonus.

and as you just pointed out, its easily denied too. everyone knows a Lithuanians player is going to be going for the relics. its as predictable as a Franks player going for Paladins.

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because there is no reason to buff the camel, it does its just job fine. it isn’t supposed to be used to fight against anything except cavalry units. want to know where the proof of that is? the fact that it literally has such a low base attack and such a high bonus. if it was intended to fight against non cavalry, it would have a higher base attack and lower bonus attack, making it more of an all around unit with a small bonus against cavalry. but it doesn’t have that at all.
as for the mameluke, there is no reason to remove the armor class, its probably their for balance reasons, and frankly the unit is balance as is. removing the armor class for the mameluke would then require further work to balance the unit again. you’d be making more work for nothing.

as for the leitis, the Leitis costs a lot of food and requires a castle to build, this makes it harder to mass up and generally won’t happen until the imperial age.
it also has low pierce armor meaning archers of all sorts will have a field day with it. and on top of that, the Leitis takes a ton of damage from Pikes/Halbs and Camels.

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Anyone who thinks that we should nerf the Leitis can, in my opinion, propose another buff to keep Lithuanians from being a crap civ again. and before you say how do i know its crap? well the stats back it up. before the patch they were buffed in, they rarely saw high level play, and were sitting at 32% winrate.
Even in Battle for Africa 2 there are only 11 civs picked less then them (Bulgarians, Burmese, Cumans, Goths, Indians, Italians, Koreans, Spanish, Tatars, Teutons, and Turks) and it was played under the patch from before them getting buffed. they also have a low 36% winrate, and only turks and spanish have lower winrates.

So even in a team game, where Lithuanians are supposed to excel according to the forums, they were weak pre patch.

MikeEmpires did some tests with all the unique units. Here some useful links to see how well the Leitis fares against them:
Leitis vs all unique units with equal ressources

Here Frank Paladin vs all unique units. The fight against the Leitis is at 14:16


As you can see Bojar slighly loses at same numbers, Bulgarian Konnik very slightly wins while the cheaper Leitis without any relics facerolls the Frank Paladin at equal numbers.

In my opinion the Leitis as a unit is overpowered. It is cheaper (70 food, 50 gold) than the knight line (60 food, 75 gold) while being faster and alot stronger - especially with 2+ relics where they can 3-shot Halberdiers while Paladins need 4 hits considering both are FU. Ignoring Armor and damage bonus from relics lets them deal far more damage than all other horse cav.
They can run away from the Knight line/Konnik/Bojar and are as fast as Cav Archers / Camel archers which can kite the Knight line/Konnik/Boyar. Also the Upgrade is far cheaper (750 food, 750 Gold) than Cavalier + Paladin Upgrade (1600 food, 1050 gold)

Theoretical disadvantages of the Leitis are less HP (150) and 1 less pierce armor compared to Paladin. But since they have the potential to kill FU Arbalesters in 2 hits (2+ relics) while a Paladin needs 3 hits and are slightly faster I guess they also do better vs archers by reaching them a bit faster and killing them insanely fast.
So the less HP/PA is usually not really a problem since they kill a lot faster which means less of them die - unless you deny them the relics - but even then they still have awesome cost efficiency.

Considering that the Leitis is a unique unit requiring a castle I think nothing is wrong if it is a bit better than other cavalry units - the question is if it is not only a bit better but too good.
On the other hand many unique units are a lot better/stronger than the basic units - take berserkers, woad raiders, samurai, plumed archers.

So it might have been on purpose that the devs wanted the Lithuanians to be the civ with the best heavy cav. If not it might have been an overlook and they might have underestimated how good the Leitis really is. The Leitis probably is overall one of the best if not the best unit in the game.

Probably one of the best ways to see if the unit is too overpowered is to look at the win rates from aoestats .io. There it seems that the Lithuanian civ seems pretty balanced when you look at the win rates of above average and top players (1250-1650 and 1650+) from last month - it was slightly below 50%.

So if the Leitis was nerfed for example with 60 gold cost time would have to show if they would need buffs somewhere else to stay at around 50% win rate.

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it also requires a castle to build, where as the knight line can be made from a stable.
as for speed, it is only .05 faster then the knight.
as for stronger, that’s debatable. the Leitis gets wrecked a lot easier against Archers then the knight does, and the Leitis attacks slower.

yeah because it ignores armor. big deal. it also has a lot less health and pierce armor then a knight. Arbs kill a Elite Leitis in 38 hits, whereas a Paladin takes 60.

okay so it can run away from stuff that is more heavily armored. not surprising. as for the upgrade being cheaper then Cav + Paladin, so is almost every Unique unit in the game, with the Exception of the Cataphract, which many people are in favor of giving a good 400 food discount.

theoretical. and that 1 whole hit aint going to mean a lot to a paladin because in those 2 hits the leitis takes 8 points of damage, while the paladin takes 9 in 3. 1 more point of damage, and it literally has 30 more health. again, 38 hits to kill a leitis from arbs, 60 for a paladin. (64 for frank paladin).

and anyone worth their salt is going to definitely deny Lithuanians relics, because that’s literally the only thing going for them. the Lithuanians have literally 3 Civilization Bonuses. 150 food at the start of the game, which admittedly is a decent bonus at the start, but pales in comparison to the bonus literally almost every other civ in the game has, and 10% faster trash. the last one? that relic bonus. so what’s everyone going to do? they are going to deny relics against Lithuanians.

well considering that is literally all they have going for them besides trash?
look at this way. before the Leitis buff, Lithuanians were sitting at 32% winrate on the ladder at the highest level of play.
Battle For Africa 2 is being played on the patch before they got buffed. Lithuanians are sitting at 36% winrate. a situation in which you would think a civ like them would thrive. but no, they have one of the 3 worst winrates there is.
Since the patch, their ladder winrate has gone up to at least a respectable 49%.

thank you for at least recognizing this.

I pretty much agree with your points.

The point of my post is to show that the Leitis is a very strong unit that is in the OP area but even with such a strong unique unit the Lithuanian civ is at very slightly below 50% win rate for the above average players which means the Civ overall is fine - considering that the win rates are correct with the given sample sizes.
If the unit would be nerfed there would have to be some compensation.

About the archer point:
It is absolutely true that Paladins can take alot more shots from Arbalesters and other archers.
Still for me chewing through enemy units faster means a lot. Less time to bring reinforcements, less time to get to safety, less time to micro hit and run and get into favorable positions like tight spaces.

Archers behind some Halbs - if you kill such a combination faster that means less time exposed to the archers and less time for enemy reinforcements so killing faster while being squishier has it’s advantages.

If you look at the two videos from MikeEmpires which I posted you can see that pure Archers are not really a counter to Leitis - even at equal ressources. Often you will face mixed compositions.

In the post above it might have been a bit unlucky that I posted a video of Leitis vs Unique Units with equal ressources and a Paladin video with same numbers (not equal ressources).
MikeEmpires also has a Leitis video with same numbers to have a comparison how well they fare against unique units compared to the Paladin:


An example from the videos: When fighting the Chu Ko Nu only 2 Frank Paladins die (almost 3) but 4 Leitis die - so overall you had less losses with the Paladins which confirms what you wrote.
The full fight from the first shot fired to the death of all Chu Ko Nu’s took around 17 sec for the Paladins but around 13 sec for the Leitis - and that is without a single relic - that confirms my point (time to reach the archers is included in these times). In larger battles and with some relics the difference of the killing speed can make quite a difference and really change a fight.

This could lead to these theoretical results:
With the Paladins attacking the archers might have kited/hit and run further back to welcome a batch of halbs while the Leitis might have cleared up the kiting/fleeing archers just before the new halbs arrive.

I guess it really depends on the situation

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these tests are extremely hypothetical and involve zero micro.

i’ll keep saying it again and again.

also it should be noted that the Lithuanians do not get the final gold gathering upgrade.

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leitis should be buffed to 2x the relic attack bonus, for total of +8 to make it fair against onagers’ +75 attack damage.

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What about the trebuchet damage, did you consider that?

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As I already mentioned for balancing. Leitis are too strong for their costs. You have to put at least 10G and even with this nerf I would still playing with this units because they are still stronger than Knights and still cheaper. And we all know Knights are popular units for castle age.

And with the collecting relics they are too strong and can only be stopped by Pikes.

If you don’t want to change anything then at least make units from other civs less cost intensives like the Leitis did. (Mamelukes, Cataphrakt, Borjan, Arambai and so on)

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so if you propose nerfing their gold cost by 10 gold, go ahead and propose a counter buff to ensure that Lithuanians stay a decent civilization.

the difference is that Saracens and Byzantines are actually solid civs as is, even given the high cost of their UU.

Lithuanians we have hordes of proof they were complete garbage pre buff.