How long will it take to nerf the USA?

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
1

Civilization is evidently broken,

First of all and most obviously, the early can easily start giving the age button at minute 2:30 without making treasures, because the civilization starts with 400 initial food, this made more sense when the shipments of age 1 were older cost, but now that they have been improved why don’t they return to the 300 boxes of food they had before?

I really don’t know the civilization in depth but it’s obvious how broken it is, its light cavalry is simply broken and there is no reason to justify it 14 range and attack speed of 2.25/s. Since when is this ok??? Sharpshooter’s combo with his light cavalry is a range abuse, they take advantage of the range to hit to run, the unit way to beat the Sharpshooter is forcing the melee because it is so OP at a distance it’s like fighting against the cassador Portuguese, they have almost the same armor at a distance, only less speed but with the range they have it is already better and also that it hits for x3.1 against light cavalry another unnecessary gift, but with how broken their light cavalry is and the pathfiding horrible of melee units one is too difficult to force melee the other would be to use more artillery, but that is not a different play style that not all civilizations can do and it is also easy to counter it if at all the united state awaits you to come,

It has a lot of cards that are so good that you can’t even compare them to 2 cards together that the other civs have,

“RUSSIAN IMMIGRANTS” get 30% animal collection + 2 blockhouses upgraded to advanced which give you 10 population. That, not even combined with the age 3 Russian card that gives you 2 blockchouse, improves his HP and with a fused Lakota food collection improvement policy, it can not be compared. That card is still better than the Lakota politician and the card of Russia board

German Immigrants: You get a lot of population from the mills and can you create them in the age of commerce?? Germany can do that at age 3, it doesn’t give you carts instantly, it doesn’t give you population of windmills, it’s far better than the German shipping:

Recently in this patch the Uhlan was buffed when he researches the actual buff and his armor is increased by 5%, this was also an indirect buff to the US card that allows you to send AGE 4 ULANOS on an AGE 3 card, this single card It can turn the game around for you, I would say that it is much better than even sending 5 Spahi or 4 Mamluks, also for a much easier cost to obtain because it is divided into food and Wood.

I mean, are the developers really aware of how broken civilization is? There are things that are OP that are understandable because it is their Bonus as is the Militia of the civilization, But the other thing mentioned above is Simply just to break it and make it too OP, because it does not make any sense

9 Likes
2

The civs had access to most of this stuff forever and it’s not been particularly strong. Sharpshooters have only seen use since state militia got nerfed a lot for example and carbine cav have only become useable fairly recently before they were trash tier.

USA looked strong at the start of this patch but since then people have figured it out and just like with any other booming civ it’s vulnerable to early pressure.

5 Likes
3

people are generally still complaining across 1300+ elo so id say its not been fixed at all; also some civs cant rush enough so like with any boom civ you cant just rest on “well this one civ i think wins” cause there are 20 other civs and while hard af the reality is devs should strive to make the game balanced across as much as possible (which they do fwiw.) so not sure who you watching or if you are playing that says usa is balanced atm.

As for sharpshooters, the issue is 2 fold. first usa players high on the gatling drug and their prior way op state militia didnt even bother for months to mess with their very strong sharpshooter as they refused to pivot of ff into gats and win ez gg mode. so devs buffed the goons tremendously to the point they are objectively broken in most matchups allowing their super long range, extra dps, but coin heavy sharps to paired with very strong goon/musk and now incredible coin eco (and why did they buff kentucky for 0 reason with a 15+ dps of skirms eq for 0 cost???) to be simply put dominating into most matchups. now usa can age2 and on have a top tier skirm goon then go to 3 and hide in base while outstriping german silversmith or abuns safely. so vs usa you have to hard rush or ff falc and pray and that is simply not possible for many civs vs range 14 musk, range 14/16 goon, and range 21+ in age2. or you will be dominated by their units and eco by mid 3 and on.

Imho the best way would be dial the carbine cav back to either bad animation or lower attack (2.25 speed fire on age2 goon with 14 range is simply way to much) and reduce some of the absurd cards in kentucky and german immigrants and then see if the sharpshooter is still op.

Also, i doubt people will listen, but the iirc vermont plus Tennessee or whateveer 2 federal states and or villager cards on berber maps or vill buffing maps is disgusting even on maps without it the vill buffs is beyond dumb. i dont think its seen enough high play for proof of concept, but i write this for a “told ya so” moment for down the road :stuck_out_tongue:

8 Likes
4

People will complain about anything, they complained about malta so much it got nerf after nerf despite never having a good win rate and now as expected still has a negative win rate across the board.
There are always good and bad match ups, playing hausa as sweden is pretty much hopeless for example.

USA win rates also reflect what I just said in that people are great at complaining but when it comes down to it usa win rates are average, china still remains far higher for example and it’s been that way for as many patches as I can remember.
Often watching twitch can be misleading too because if you’re watching rank 5 playing usa and winning a lot they may seem good however that person probably has a 70% win rate anyway.

I don’t see any issue with the skirms or the carbine cav, skirms melt to pretty much anything with so low hp. There are far better skirmishers than sharpshooters. Carbine cav is just a lower hp, higher attack dragoon. I’d also consider it pretty much essential to usa now, until it became useable usa would just get rolled by cav and it was well known just how poorly they performed vs any strong cav civs.

Only thing that is op is the silly change to the sharpshooter federal card that gives them +5 owlhoots as well, no idea why they did that.

5 Likes
5

Please list the better skirms than 21+ range 40%rr extrz base damage extra multi vs goon and hvy skirms age2 or 3. Now list the civs that also get age2 goon to mass early and also have great eco
The closest is 3x carded haude FP after apending 1200 res and weak eco or ports age4 . Brits after several age3 cards. Usa does this sub 10 min usually.8min and thx to xp curve and new coin cards/german immigrants sacrafices nothing.

Carbine are cheaper more dps longer range goon. Nothing touches sharpshooters in age2 rhx to these, and age3 they get extra armor making them res to res better than any goon but f/up port goon.

Usa isnt just locked to skirm goon never was. Its supposed to be jack of trades master of none. Now i see almost anyone not playing usa asking why they get best skirm goon combo and to me its pretty clear you shouldnt get s tier skirm and overperfoming goon age2 at a minium and also ask why usa needed extra range goon or rapid firing goon backed by the above.

7 Likes
6

The USA has already been nerfed and more cost added to some immigrant cards. Saying US carbine cavalry are broken is laughable. They are just goons and not real good ones pretty average. Sharpshooters are decent but not OP they have very low HP. People literally just complain about anything they lose to. I got beat by Ottomans with abus guns that were shielded by musks, but I didn’t make threads saying abus is broken. That said Otto don’t need any buffs that’s for sure.

5 Likes
8

There’s no point going over why a civ has access to ‘x’ and another doesn’t, there’s variation because the devs want the civs to be different.

access to those units in age 2 I see no issue, you can get like 5 of each from the church if going pennsylvania though you’ll slow your FF considerably and it’s not usually worth doing. Only other way to get more is sending long rifles which is a waste if going FF anyway, it’s only good for SM/Marines. Same with lee’s legion, don’t see that even being used.

I consider many skirms/light inf better, cassadores, forest prowlers, fulani, bersiglieri and many others get better once carded like french skirms, maltese xbow, dutch skirm, yumi and so on.
In fact considering that sharpshooters have 1 card all they have going for them is the bit of extra range and are outclassed by many light infantry units.

I’ve not compared the resource value of carbine cav vs other dragoons but I doubt they are more cost effective than ruyters/javelin riders once they have their age 3 card too.

As I mentioned in my previous post win rate remains average, let’s see how it changes as more games are played but it seems to remain in the same state as all other previous patches.

I feel people are so fast to try and nerf civs in this community, it’s like italy for example got nerfed so hard because above 1700 elo people abused the FI, yet at all other levels they had low win rate. Even now with the free forts only above 1700 elo do they have a positive win rate, every other level they are way below average, malta is far worse.

4 Likes
9

if you think strong skirm goon isnt a problem in age2 vs most civs, espcially older civs based around musk/huss vs pike/xbow comps, then i highly encourage you to watch more recs as of late. USA isnt as broken as say fort italy, but this comp smashes the native civs, most semi ff civs, and unlike hausa or india usa can age pretty fast and then gets great age3 tempo cards (3 gats, uhlans, etc).

all of these loose the skirm war with kiting, and again thanks to how good carbine got you cant even abuse their somwhat bad (not longbow bad but not crisp) animation plus the usual free drummers on them

Lee’s legion is absolutely being used at high to low level as 6 goons for 500res is solid especially now devs buffed carbine via range, rof, cost, and then imho foolishly removed the bad animation without downside. dutch were too op with 5 ackward goon, usa gets 6 and they are cheap unlike buckriders. the one card to be as good as 3x carded skirms is also moreso showing whats a problem- less deck space needed, and can close games or invest in eco cards due to how strong they are. hausa/ethopia, mexico outlaws, crabats, etc all needed nerfs for this exact reason- too good of skirm goon too early is op. id say there is a very strong case usa is currently the worst offender of this.

This wasnt an issue when again, usa had subpar cav, then their great artillery and infantry were balanced around by their issues with dictating fights and positioning and needed to use forts or map control to best dictate the pace. the combo of easy safe access to coin (sharpshooters are pricey) or long age2 boom (via various immigrants) plus the goon makes it too much. nothing in aoe3 is in a vaccum, and the ability to combo all of these fast is an issue. i dont think it all needs nerfs, but clearly something is overperforming here.

as for win rates, there are many many issues but fwiw usa continues to climb in win rate above 50% so id suspect it will continue over this patch. and win rates dont tell the whole story- currently usa only is loosing to other top civs. makes its an oligarchy of meta if that makes sense. i dont see how nerfing the goon to a patch back and probably taxing german immigrants a bit makes usa “dead” while keeping it around 50% win rate globally and still having its flavor of strong infantry balanced by a bit less cav

3 Likes
10

I have +1600 and 2100 of Team elo, Since you talk about people who complain with elo or without elo, It doesn’t matter

The carbine is broken, it is not an opinion it is a fact, 14 range and dps is good, I imagine that those who say that it is good are the same as those who said that the Hakkapelita from before was good.

I reiterate that the US is broken by all things. I did not complain before about the US because it seemed at least to be balanced. But age 2 aging is absurd for the characteristics of civilization. The Ottomans age quickly, it makes sense if they get by with a lot of miserable villagers but what about the US?

That you can age with different immigrant options each one is as good or better than aging with 3 common villagers.

Before that didn’t happen, I had a normal pass like any other at age 2, I was slower but I had another BO that was more OP, I prefer that old US with Machine Guns without a negative bonus to cavalry to the stupidity of civilization that it is now.

Snipers were not used before, the nerf to the other light infantry was years ago and even so between patches it was still not used as much, think a little and why is it used more now? Is it because now he passes insanely quickly of age? plus the sending of German Immigrants which can create carts at age 2, fight at age 2 if necessary, the point is that you can age at age 3 with a solid economy.

OK, the Sharpshooter is OP, but it’s not broken, but the carbine, yes, and that makes the combo very good because the carbine has a range and DPS advantage. It helps a lot more than you think that the goon has 14 range, those 2 range and attack rate a fluid hit to run.

I have seen Team games where the US ages so quickly that it can break the FB that the rival team uses to make a Rush with militia, because even if it has a negative bonus against villagers, if it manages to kill the villagers anyway + 5 musk of shipping, It is not the same as a Hadenosaune or Ottoman because these can age with the US shitty economy.

I have played against and I have also seen how “schafsekel7” (Top 12 team games player) gets old at minute 3:36 with the United States, I mean, please, it’s stupid,

Tell me a goons that is better at age 2 than the carbine or even at age 3 if we equate the costs in mass

Imagine the long bow gives it the attack animation that the fulani have, the stats are maintained? It’s the same crap with the carbine

5 Likes
11

Ridiculous is denying the statistics of the unit and saying that it is not OP, Yes and well Sweden has also received much more nerf than buff, that does not mean that a patch that puts a buff on it is not strong, in fact it was something similar to Sweden had added +100 food and the civilization was broken, because it was able to exploit the number of non-linear things it can do and it’s the same with the US, getting older is equal to being able to take the initiative with advantage and let a lot of people come out best BO, MU Strategies.

1 Like
12

It’s not that I don’t think it could be good, just that I haven’t seen it at all at 1700 elo at least, perhaps it’s something popular at 1900+ (less than 1% of players). I just think in most games it just delays the FF, if you want to go skirm/goon just FF and get access to russian blockhouse card and 2 coal mines, age 2 seems suboptimal.

Assuming you allow yourself to be kited and fight battles you can’t win. Many of those I mentioned have higher speed(even if usa get drummers early) so they can choose what fights to take as speed is the most important stat in the game.

The goon was useless before, absolutely trash tier unit. If there had to be a nerf just move it’s combat card back to age 4 but it’s totally unnecessary.
Only nerf needed is removing 5 owlhoots from the sharpshooter card, german immigrants isn’t that great either it’s already worse than german tongue of the maltese.

1 Like
13

if youre the usa player ofc you wont see it XD
just watch some streams, ive seen it myself from every elo so far. this plus the above eco pinchua said all makes usa a bit over the top again. too much buff. usa isnt a bot the ff civ, ableit it still can.
and the speed of skirms is squat if you loose too much, what do you think aenna are op? ofc not. the animation isnt bad enough like longbow to make their speed 4 an issue, and skirms have to get hit and then slug it out vs a stronger, more rr% skirm that again, thanks to how easy coin is massed by usa cost effective skirm. so you loose the skirm war, and cant tank/ bully with hand cav cause ofc usa got rapid fire goon

maybe because you are usa player so not keyed into what others are doing or handwaiving the other civs I really see this sentiment echo’d from low to high elo. Kees in particular doing a great job showcasing this build fwiw. Ive watched streams at every elo its basically cancer to any other civ atm. I think only otto beats it and even then cant brawl long in age2 thanks to range vs abus. I think a small nerf to either eco/Kentucky coin mines (4k fast gather safe coin for no cost, hmmm) and reduction of goon to at least rof3 (the excuse for 2.25 was bad animation which is gone) both can reduce usa without killing the civ, just allow counter play.

Again, sharpshooters alone are probably ok. just like haude can have strong skirm or ethopia or hausa etc due to other constraints on the aforementioned goon or other stuff like expensive, weak eco, later in game, slow tempo etc). As is usa just gets too much too quickly and to easily/safely

6 Likes
14

I’m not particularly a US main though I do enjoy playing them from time to time. I watch streams quite often and I’ve seen that kees guy in a lot of them, also seen him lose frequently. The guy has a 51% win rate in 1v1 and the same with usa so I don’t think he’s breaking the game with them going on 100 win streaks like revnaks italy.
So this guy that’s supposedly laming ‘op’ usa so much wins only 51% of his games with them which seems perfectly fine. As I said just watching twitch and listening to whiners can be very misleading. Those that shout loudest aren’t always correct.

The only thing that has really changed with usa other than the kentucky hunters card (which used to be op when it gave 2 sharpshooters per shipment and for some reason they made it op again giving you an extra 5 owlhoots) is the german immigrants card but rather than boosting the eco a lot with it like malta does it just seems to be sent instead of 3v not in addition to and it’s rare all the wagons are trained early on like malta does.

We’re only seeing the use of the 2 coal mines card more now because it’s obviously the best age up with the card that also gives sharpshooters and owlhoots. They shouldn’t have nerfed new hampshire so hard because now it’s not worth sending the early factory if it costs 500 res plus the card. Indiana and maryland are situational and tenessee needs a revamp, nobody wants state militias now and you don’t typically have many outposts anyway in 1v1, the settler cards not bad but could be better if it gave you another vill perhaps, 4 vills isn’t great in age 3 even with extra yield.

2 Likes
15

It feels you just want to avoid any critique of usa atm with the 51% win rate argument- everyone by design evens out around 50% win rate unless you top player to the point you smash all others. and through the same app, kees is winning more than 50% of usa games. Its hard tho as the air past even 1500 gets thin so how many games were cinoetitve ie within a certain elo. I was mostly pointing out someone who does a good job(and frequently shows up on stream.

And german immigrants is great when paired with mills or just made in long age2s effectively extra tc production. Its also far cheaper than maltas with usa xp curve way better. Thats not bad that usa has better curve but to state german tongue is strictly better i think is not accurate assessment

Prehaps your bar is higher than mine, for me anything that shreds most of civs and completely screw some is concern. From available data and majority of people (not just the “chat” but majority of streamers as well) and players ive played with or against feel like this combo is too strong. Its good to advocate for restraint on nerfs, but if you feel like long range fast firing goon cassprowlers and safe boosted coin eco arent a bit too much i dont know what would change your mind tbh. To each their own ig

1 Like
16

it takes around a years but even more

17

If it was op I have no problem admitting that, what I don’t like is the habit of many people especially streamers/well known players of just jumping on the bandwagon and screaming op and then all their following just does the same. We’ve seen it with malta and now we’re seeing it with the usa.
When african civs were new the hausa tower rush was broken and ridiculously op and everyone did it that was over like 1k elo, you could get 400 elo higher than normal just laming that strategy. Obviously op and the stats reflected that and it was nerfed. I don’t see anyone winning so much more now with usa than they did before.

In general you should even out at 50%, the exception would be when a civ is stronger than most others. For the last year at least we’ve seen that with china and sweden which have had win rates of over 55% consistently for that reason they have been nerfed frequently.

I just consider it better because you get 2 settler wagons immediately, and can train up to 6 so you get 1 extra and you also get a hybrid stable/outpost for 250 wood extra. I guess if you build a mill german immigrants is more value in total res with the mill being worth 400w and commandery being less res but the mill is quite useless until late game and a stable/outpost is very useful.

Streamers are incredibly unreliable, each 1 is biased to their main civs and you can see from the other post on here where revnak and kaiserklein are arguing that despite them being like 2 ranks apart on the leaderboard their opinion as to what is and isn’t op varies widely. I think the last thing anyone should do is listen to a streamers opinion unless they back it up with stats and a detailed analysis on youtube as to why that is the case.

There are lots of cases with civs that have certain economical benefits, sweden torps/shrines/kanchas/berber vills/hacienda vills/manor vills etc. Most of which are stronger than a temporary faster gathering of gold, plus the benefit from the mines is limited if you have done a FF as you’ll have relatively few vills to take advantage of the faster gathering at the same point brit is already at 50v+ eco.

3 Likes
18

Imo, USA have a lot of good shipments and a lot of exp to expend. I think they need take tha same path than Italy, and put a Exp curve nerf and make shipments cost 102-105% to balance the civ. Like the other dude say adobe, if you dont hard Rush USA or do a rlly good and fast ff, you are death.

1 Like
19

I remember in the last PUP feeling firsthand how OP the USA was going to be now.

They have already shown all the points, nothing more to add. Actually is tier S.

20

check the win rate before complaining, USA is just a mediocre civ in the whole game.

1 Like
21

America F*** yeah!!!

2 Likes